Can a Boy Wear a Skirt to School? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can a Boy Wear a Skirt to School?

#21

Post by roundsquare » Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 4:59 AM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #18

roundsquare wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straight from the article... And safety is a critical concern. In February 2008, Lawrence King, an eighth-grader from Oxnard, Calif., who occasionally wore high-heeled boots and makeup, was shot to death in class by another student.

So it's the victim's fault for dressing like a woman? I'm sure rape victims are at fault for dressing so provocatively, too?

No, not at all. I'd love for this not to be a concern, but unfortunately it turns out that it is. The administrators are responsible for ensuring that the students at the school are safe. Given the existence of bullies and the inability of the school to hire enough administrators to be everywhere at once, they need some other method for keeping students safe. Here are a few options:

1) Find some way to convince bullies to stop bullying and realize how stupid they are.

2) Cameras everywhere and punish people for beating up other kids.

3) Find out what provokes bullies and prevent that from happening.

4) Do nothing.

#1 probably can't be done quickly.

#2 might be reasonable but would be an invasion of privacy in some ways. this is another solution that deserves debate.

#3 is what the schools are doing.

#4 is unacceptable to many parents

So, if you are going to suggest that the school's policy is bad, you must either pick one of the 4 above or suggest a new option. There might well be a better option! If you have one, please please please put it up here.

So, I ask you, what should the schools do?

Re: Can a Boy Wear a Skirt to School?

#22

Post by roundsquare » Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 5:06 AM UTC

derobert wrote: post #20

roundsquare wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats fine until safety becomes a concern, at which point officials need to step in. We don't let kids do things that can harm them (to some degree anyway) and we need to keep a careful eye on the balance there...

Requiring students (male or female) to tie up long hair or not wear loose-fitting clothing when working with power tools in shop class is a safety concern. Requiring long jeans in sheet metal working (to protect from sharp edges) is a safety concern. Removing jewelry before doing electrical work is a safety concern. Prohibiting peaceful self expression because a jerk may bully about it is blaming the victim, not a (l…

A safety concern is anything that risks the safety of people. In schools, its anything that risks the safety of the students.

What you are saying is that in this case there are other concerns (self expression) and those trump safety. Thats a reasonable view. However, the school, and many people, don't believe that the school should prioritize self expression over safety. I'm sure many parents don't feel that they should either.

To say that the school's concern is not legitimate is unrealistic. Safety concerns do practice sexism all the time. Its unfortunate, but true. Most people are more scared of a woman walking home drunk at 2:00 AM than a man doing the same.

Edit: Deleted my last line.

Re: Can a Boy Wear a Skirt to School?

#23

Post by moron4hire » Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 1:25 PM UTC

roundsquare wrote: post #21

moron4hire wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's the victim's fault for dressing like a woman? I'm sure rape victims are at fault for dressing so provocatively, too?

No, not at all. I'd love for this not to be a concern, but unfortunately it turns out that it is. The administrators are responsible for ensuring that the students at the school are safe. Given the existence of bullies and the inability of the school to hire enough administrators to be everywhere at once, they need some other method for keeping students safe. Here are a few options: 1) Find some way to convince bulli…

In order for bullying to stop, the environment must be absolutely toxic to them. If they tease someone for how they dress, the only solution is to encourage that sort of dress in all of the students, as a show of solidarity against the bully. By banning it, you only validate the bully's world view, showing him or her that their "heart was in the right place," but that their methods were lacking. "Don't use violence, use regulation!"

Re: Can a Boy Wear a Skirt to School?

#24

Post by roundsquare » Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 8:01 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #23

roundsquare wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not at all. I'd love for this not to be a concern, but unfortunately it turns out that it is. The administrators are responsible for ensuring that the students at the school are safe. Given the existence of bullies and the inability of the school to hire enough administrators to be everywhere at once, they need some other method for keeping students safe. Here are a few options: 1) Find some way to convince bulli…

In order for bullying to stop, the environment must be absolutely toxic to them. If they tease someone for how they dress, the only solution is to encourage that sort of dress in all of the students, as a show of solidarity against the bully. By banning it, you only validate the bully's world view, showing him or her that their "heart was in the right place," but that their methods were lacking. "Don't use violence,…

Okay, good answer. I believe I concede the point with just one question (maybe more to come in the morning when my brain is in better condition)...

How long will this take? My guess is that most guys wouldn't feel comfortable dressing in a skirt (or whatever). I don't see this becoming the norm anytime soon. So the administration can encourage this as much as it wants, but until the bully actually feels like he/she is in the minority, nothing will change. In the meantime, bullies will continue to beat up kids.

But, I agree, things should change. (By the way, this is what I believed the whole time. I was just pointing out the safety issues. Also, your previous post was unnecessarily offensive in somehow suggesting that I somehow blame the victims, and I'd ask that in the future you try to get a complete understanding of someone's views before attacking them Thanks in advance!)