I Quit: What really goes on at Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#291

Post by shostack » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:02 PM UTC

_trb_ wrote: post #273

shostack wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all ironic. OP was posting about how customer support is a cost center, amongst other claims. He stated that it is like this in any company. I completely disagree and have experienced the proof of that first hand. I'm a little unclear from how you worded things--was the question around the notion of firing people as heroic juxtaposed against what we call our support team (ie. Heroes)?

In large companies, customer support is a cost center. This can invert in SMB scenarios.

Disney would like to disagree.[1]

[1] http://www.helpscout.net/blog/disney-customer-experience/

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#292

Post by storgendibal » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:07 PM UTC

nathanvanfleet wrote: post #243

storgendibal wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, 60 hours is a low intensity week in management consulting and especially investment banking. Once upon a time, a banker 2-3 years out of an MBA (say 28-30) would make $300-500K cash. The hourly rate is lower than minimum wage though (these guys used to put in 100+ hours). They did it in the hopes of landing a private equity gig that would pay them $1M+ for a 50-70 hour work week. That's a deal I would take in a…

I'm sorry that's just frankly not possible. Even with your lowest value of 300k a year and you're hours value of 100 hours a week you're looking at ~60$/hour assuming they have no vacation or time off. Now look at the minimum wage and realize it's still many times that. I have a lawyer friend who says the same thing as you, and I seriously doubt it's so over the long run.

I think the saying comes from junior bankers and lawyers, before their first bonus check, although even then, the math does not work out to minimum wage.

When I graduated college, base salaries in banking were about $65,000, which leads to $12.50 / hour. After their first bonus check, this doubles, of course, but that first year can feel pretty bad. Still not minimum wage, but I think the point they want to make is that, yes, we make lots of money, but is it worth it with the hours. In comparison, a $120,000 tech job at a big company (not counting equity), working 40 hours a week with 2 weeks vacation comes to about $60 / hour.

The difference is that the professional services compensation grows at a much faster rate than the tech compensation, unless you happen to pick the next Google/FB/whatever and get on-board early on.

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#293

Post by pinewurst » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:07 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #221

pinewurst wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were getting paid around $20K a year (ref folklore.org) at a time when that wasn't exactly munificent. I'm not even sure they had stock grants either, just promises of greatness from Steve. Idiots.

We all have our weaknesses. I'd rather have contempt for the manipulators than the manipulated.

I apologize if it came off as contempt for the manipulated. I meant it more as sadness for them. St. Steve on the other hand...

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#294

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:09 PM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #259

api wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I think you missed my point. They are the kings of design and UX. It disturbs me that their culture is this totalitarian and dysfunctional, but it doesn't surprise me in the least.

Why doesn't it surprise you in the least?

His post explains it. To have good design/UX (in his opinion), you need to exercise a lot of control over your product- totalitarian control, even. Apple is great at design- therefore, the company culture to maintain that control is also totalitarian.

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#295

Post by mark-r » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:12 PM UTC

johnward wrote: post #93

borgia wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At a recent interview I mentioned I like tinkering with code on the side and was told I'd have to give that up and stop contributing to open source. I faced similar in my last company (not with Apple). Now find it very difficult to get working on a side project or similar at home after having not done anything in that regard in a few years. Ideas I once had to develop are long gone. Bleh.

IBM had us sign something that said we couldn't work on outside projects without permission. It seems like it's not that difficult to get permission. Most people just ignore it. When we got notice of the acquisition a group of devs had a lawyer come in and from what I hear the lawyer basically said "don't sign this if you want to do anything outside of work ever". I just thought this was common for these megacorps. I…

Check out California code 2870 which basically says anything you work on at home, on your own time, using your own equipment, and not related to your employers line of business, is yours. The company can still fire you for your side business though.

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#296

Post by edc117 » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:12 PM UTC

curiously wrote: post #247

exelius wrote: post #24

But... the author worked in customer support, managing agents. Customer support in any company is like this: it's full of bobblehead managers who make work to justify their own jobs. It's a cost center, and cost centers are where you put executives who are capable, but not exceptional. This is why OP has stories about how firing people was considered heroic -- when you work in a cost center, the only thing the busine…

software engineers are also a cost centers.

Depends on the role - for a COTS type of software, they are certainly not - they are revenue generating. Consultancy? Same thing. Now for internal tool development or support, sure, but how many businesses can operate without one? How many can 10 years from now? 20?

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#297

Post by codezero » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:13 PM UTC

sswaner wrote: post #263

codezero wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you, by chance, have a list of those exceptional cases? I'd love to learn more! edit: thanks everyone for these replies they're great, keep them coming!

I called Apple customer support last night for the first time ever. Called to get confirmation of AppleCare support for an iPad -- I didn't buy support :( My experience with them was the best customer support experience I have ever had. They were great. They were prompt, knowledgeable, and compassionate.

Ditto. I've had so many positive Apple experiences, even recently.

A while ago, I could walk in the store and get replacement parts on the spot. They've replaced my sister's broken computer when she was out of warranty without giving her a hard time.

Most recently I had a really esoteric thing where my Apple Developer account had my mom's name on it because it was linked to the phone I got from her... I dunno, anyways, I managed to get someone who manages developer accounts on the phone, even though I don't pay for the developer account, and they updated it for me and got it sorted out, with minimal friction, and only a small amount of time on the phone.

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#298

Post by zaroth » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:14 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #24

But... the author worked in customer support, managing agents. Customer support in any company is like this: it's full of bobblehead managers who make work to justify their own jobs. It's a cost center, and cost centers are where you put executives who are capable, but not exceptional. This is why OP has stories about how firing people was considered heroic -- when you work in a cost center, the only thing the busine…

You know what else is a cost center? Engineering. It's perceived as a massive step up from Call Center or Customer Support or QA but it's just marginally closer to revenue generation than the sales reps and can suffer many the same issues.

At a previous company I managed to end up doing my software development work under a Sales title, so I could get the quota and commissions that would come with it. All of a sudden I was earning a percentage of revenue every time a customer bought the software I wrote, winning recognition from the CEO, going to Presidents Club, etc. and total comp basically doubled. Doing exactly the same job under Engineering in previous years won me maybe a few thousand dollar bonus, or one year a gift card for dinner.

Somehow companies don't realize that you need everyone working as team to hit that revenue number at the end of the year, and every member of that team is doing essential work. You can have Customer Support rockstars, just like you can have Engineering and Sales rockstars. It's just that the Sales rockstars are trivially easy to measure (bookings) and so much easier to reward. I have yet to read about a compelling solution to this, because a low-base / high-commission model is proven to attract and incentivize talented reps and drive out the low performers, and there just isn't an equivalent process you can apply in the cost centers.

Not every employee wants or needs to be on variable comp, but the way we manage and reward employees is often very much dependent on how closely they are to driving revenue. I would be interested in case studies on companies that have managed to Think Differently on this, and I don't just mean a "profit sharing" plan.

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#299

Post by clarky07 » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:15 PM UTC

storgendibal wrote: post #184

beamatronic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can pay me to work 60 hours a work, but so far no employers choose to.

Heh, 60 hours is a low intensity week in management consulting and especially investment banking. Once upon a time, a banker 2-3 years out of an MBA (say 28-30) would make $300-500K cash. The hourly rate is lower than minimum wage though (these guys used to put in 100+ hours). They did it in the hopes of landing a private equity gig that would pay them $1M+ for a 50-70 hour work week. That's a deal I would take in a…

Even with your edit, you still don't get it. McDonald's employee's don't make > $50 an hour. No one can make $300k+ working at mcdonalds, even if they work 24/7. Even if you worked LITERALLY every single hour of the year (8760) minimum wage would get you to ~63.5k. That's a far cry from 300-500k

Any banker type that says something like that is an asshole or is really bad at math. Assuming he's a competent banker he's probably not actually bad at math and is just an asshole.

Re: I Quit: What really goes on at Apple

#300

Post by jmccree » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 11:15 PM UTC

gknoy wrote: post #240

wpietri wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never worked at Sonic, but I'll give you a hearty amen as a customer for several years. When I try to get friends to switch from Comcast, all I hear is, "But it costs more!" To which I say, "However, it actually works. And when it doesn't, you can talk to somebody smart." Not having to fuck around is worth cash money to me. Customer service isn't a cost center. It's a value creator.

I realize it's a little bit comical to consider customer service so highly, but I have had __consistently__ excellent support from Sonic.net, and have been a very happy customer ever since literally the first day it was installed. I have similar probably-irrationally-high opinions of In-N-Out Burger's operations. I've had such excellent service for so many years that even when I have an objectively __terrible__ exper…

Chick-fil-a is known for this. One of my family members called the store to let them know they left out one sandwich on their order. The store manger drove immediately to them with 2 free sandwiches and some coupons. That's just insanely good service for fast food.