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A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

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Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#171

Post by dragonwriter »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #170
zaroth wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now when a cop shoots you while you are trying to rob a bank, it's suicide? This seems like a perfect example of felony murder.

>Now when a cop shoots you while you are trying to rob a bank, it's suicide? The euphemism is "suicide by cop", yeah. >This seems like a perfect example of felony murder. When the deceased was committing a felony themselves, why can't they take 100% of their own felony murder charge? We don't need multiple people to face full consequences for a single act.

> When the deceased was committing a felony themselves, why can't they take 100% of their own felony murder charge? We don't need multiple people to face full consequences for a single act.

If you view punishment retributively, as a blood price that must be paid, that argument makes sense -- when you have multiple people available to take the cost, only one of them should need to (of course, if you view it that way, its hard to see how the person who died can, if felony murder has a blood price, be said to pay it.)

But, while retribution is no doubt part of the basis of punishments in the American system, its not the sole basis. If two people act together to commit a murder directly, we punish them both as principles. If two people act together to commit a felony in which someone is one of them -- whether or not it is one of them -- why shouldn't both be fully liable (whehter or not both can be punished) for felony murder?

A crime doesn't necessarily have only one principal, and when it has more than one, we don't generally only punish one. And if it has multiple principals and one of them is not subject to the jurisdiction of the court, or immune to punishment for some other reason, that doesn't absolve the other principals of punishment. I don't see why felony murder, presuming that we should have it at all, should be an exception to that rule.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#172

Post by dragonwriter »

zaroth wrote: post #116
Dylan16807 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When felony murder kills a bystander through recklessness, that makes sense. Felony suicide should not count as felony murder by the partners. He got himself killed.

Now when a cop shoots you while you are trying to rob a bank, it's suicide? This seems like a perfect example of felony murder.

> This seems like a perfect example of felony murder.

Its literally a textbook example -- its one of the standard examples used in teaching the felony murder rule.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#173

Post by dragonwriter »

beamatronic wrote: post #73
zerocrates wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The felony murder rule is somewhat controversial but nevertheless nearly universal in the United States.

Does it always override the Good Samaritan law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law "Good Samaritan laws offer legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are injured, ill, in peril, or otherwise incapacitated." Does the law allow you to act as a Good Samaritan in the course of committing a felony?

> Does the law allow you to act as a Good Samaritan in the course of committing a felony?

I don't think any jurisdiction has a "Good Samaritan" law which makes it so that trying to provide assistance after the fact negates liability one would have for criminal acts that make you liable for the injury in the first place, including effects of injury that the attempt to provide assistance was intended to prevent but failed to.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#174

Post by stickfigure »

Torgo wrote: post #129
qiqing wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal system is supposed to make punishments fit the crime, not heap arbitrarily much punishment on anyone who ever breaks any law ever. If you only never made any mistakes filling out your taxes, your moonshine business may still be thriving. If you only weren't selling loose cigarettes, you may still be alive... As someone who was once an illegal immigrant (though not in the U.S.), I say this completely unironi…

I think it does fit the crime, and it's not arbitrary. You get charged with crimes you committed because you didn't want to be caught committing a crime. "I moved the body because I was being chased by the cops" isn't a good excuse. >As someone who was once an illegal immigrant This is perfectly analogous. People in countries illegally sometimes engage in identity theft, illegal labor, and a variety of other things s…

The problem here is that the punishment doesn't fit our collective understanding about the relative immorality of various crimes.

Years ago there was a movie review site called moviecritic.com (a demo site for early collaborative filtering technology). After you rated a movie from 1 to 10, it would show you your rating for several other movies and ask you if you're sure. Half the time you would think "wait a minute, no, I really didn't mean to rate this better than The Shawshank Redemption" and adjust the rating.

A guy robbed a bank. His friend who died understood the risk he was taking; his death is morally "on his own head", even if the "unlucky" robber may have a hand in it. The punishment for this needs to be put next to the punishments for "violent rape", "assault+battery", "willful murder" and adjusted accordingly. Otherwise the whole system feels unfair and arbitrary.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#175

Post by stickfigure »

dragonwriter wrote: post #171
Dylan16807 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now when a cop shoots you while you are trying to rob a bank, it's suicide? The euphemism is "suicide by cop", yeah. >This seems like a perfect example of felony murder. When the deceased was committing a felony themselves, why can't they take 100% of their own felony murder charge? We don't need multiple people to face full consequences for a single act.

> When the deceased was committing a felony themselves, why can't they take 100% of their own felony murder charge? We don't need multiple people to face full consequences for a single act. If you view punishment retributively, as a blood price that must be paid, that argument makes sense -- when you have multiple people available to take the cost, only one of them should need to (of course, if you view it that way,…

The law may work this way, but our social notions of justice do not. Talk to ten people on the street about the circumstances of this crime ("A and B rob a bank; B gets shot and killed"). Ask them how they feel about these two statements:

1) "It's A's fault that B got killed"

2) "It's B's fault he got himself killed"

I doubt you will get much agreement with #1 (I would expect responses like "did A talk B into it?") and I'm pretty sure you will get lots of agreement with #2. The law (effectively #1) is incongruous with our prevailing notions of morality and responsibility.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#176

Post by hunterloftis »

vacri wrote: post #97
ChrisBland wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its easy to say that sitting in your chair from this side. I would imagine that if I was one of the people in the bank that was being robbed, and I were forced in to a room. I would feel that I was being kidnapped / held hostage.

Do you think that because you and a colleague were held hostage ('kidnapped' is ridiculous, not even taken off-site) that it's worth each perpetrator getting about 30 years in prison? That that moment of fear is worth locking someone up for a generation and a half? That that moment of fear is even worth you paying taxes to keep that person locked up for that time? 30 years ago, the Cold War was still in full swing. M…

Man, you layer it on thick. I just turned 30!

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#177

Post by vacri »

hunterloftis wrote: post #176
vacri wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that because you and a colleague were held hostage ('kidnapped' is ridiculous, not even taken off-site) that it's worth each perpetrator getting about 30 years in prison? That that moment of fear is worth locking someone up for a generation and a half? That that moment of fear is even worth you paying taxes to keep that person locked up for that time? 30 years ago, the Cold War was still in full swing. M…

Man, you layer it on thick. I just turned 30!

More big hair and legwarmers for you!

Actually, I was thinking about it a bit more this morning, and found another interesting 30 year stretch: from the declaration of war in WWI to the close of WWII in Europe (VE Day) was about a month short of 31 years. Taking it to VP Day is about 1 month into 31 years.

So both world wars and everything that happened in-between took 'only' 30-ish years. :)

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#178

Post by JanezStupar »

fixxer wrote: post #164
nknighthb wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever justice is, it cannot be the vengeful, racist, wealth-centered system we have now. Nor can it possibly be found in the the mind of anyone prone to uttering the phrase "fuck this guy". Whatever justice is, it cannot be forfeiting our own empathy and humanity.

I agree with you to an extent. Where was the robber's empathy and humanity when he decided to commit a violent crime? I'm sticking with "fuck this guy". If you really want to bear a cross, I can think of a few better candidates for your poster boy of injustice.

Where is the empathy of a well off white boy who runs over people with his car while drunk and gets away with merely a scolding - beceause his parents are rich and connected enough to get him a good lawyer.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#179

Post by fixxer »

JanezStupar wrote: post #178
fixxer wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you to an extent. Where was the robber's empathy and humanity when he decided to commit a violent crime? I'm sticking with "fuck this guy". If you really want to bear a cross, I can think of a few better candidates for your poster boy of injustice.

Where is the empathy of a well off white boy who runs over people with his car while drunk and gets away with merely a scolding - beceause his parents are rich and connected enough to get him a good lawyer.

One straw man argument after another... We're talking about a bank robber. We're talking about crimes committed during the robbery (preventing his accomplice from getting medical care, which resulted in his accomplice's death) being added to his list charges.

And I don't disagree with you! I hate injustice like you're referring to as well. But injustice is not some exchangeable capital. We can't correct one by neglecting to punish another.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#180

Post by ctdonath »

seanflyon wrote: post #125
fixxer wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterfeiting, IMO and apparently the opinion of the Government (we rarely agree, for the record), is basically on par with treason.

Counterfeiting seems to me to be on par with fraud and theft. Could you explain why you consider it to be on par with treason?

The federal government's scale of "badness" differs from yours. Look at the sentences handed out. Just a little behind murder is counterfeiting, illegal weapons possession, and mail fraud. A fake $20? Unlicensed gun with barrel 1cm short of legal? a stamp-less letter using the return address as the intended destination? they all sound so trivial, yes. Yet...they cut at the foundation of the country: falsifying the representation of value, edge into revolutionary armaments, and undermine the smooth flow of information. Sure they're petty in and of themselves, but they constitute "the line" which anyone stepping over begin to damage & undermine the fragile structure holding up our society & government. Copy a $20? [shrug] meh, no big deal. Everyone copies a $20 (just once)? $6,000,000,000 of fake money can screw up the economy fast.
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