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A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

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Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#121

Post by ecdavis »

waterfowl wrote: post #29

The insanity of the charges/sentencing reminds me of a passage from The Hot House (which is excellent, Pete Earley somehow got permission to go mingle with prisoners at USP Leavenworth for a year and write about it). A Bank Robber, 45 'They originally charged me with murder, kidnapping, and bank robbery, but I'm really just a bank robber with really bad luck. You see, my buddy and me were robbing this bank, and when…

> He shoots my buddy, but I don't know he's dead so I pull him into the car and drive away.

What if his friend wasn't dead, but in fact died in the car as he was driving away from the scene? What if his friend's life could've been saved by treatment at the scene? Moreover, did he have a plan for saving his friends life or was he simply trying to get them both away from the police? Furthermore, being charged with something is not the same as being found guilty of it. The quote begins, "They originally charged me," so I'm guessing some of the charges were dropped? Even then, it comes down to a jury to decide guilt.

I binge-watched a bunch of prison documentaries recently (in particular, Into the Abyss and the series by Louis Theroux are very good). They shed a lot of light on the terrible aspects of the U.S. prison system. Interviews with inmates, though, also make it clear that a lot of these people:

a) Know next to nothing about the legal system outside of their own interpretation of whatever their lawyer/judge has told them. Think of explaining programming to someone who doesn't regularly use technology, and then they go and explain it to someone else.

b) Maintain their innocence even in the face of extremely damning physical and forensic evidence to the contrary. Into the Abyss has a great example of this.

I have fundamental problems with the adversarial justice system, but it's nonetheless important to be critical of what convicts say about their own situations. They're obviously going to be biased - even if they are innocent.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#123

Post by akira2501 »

fixxer wrote: post #110
waterfowl wrote: post #29

The insanity of the charges/sentencing reminds me of a passage from The Hot House (which is excellent, Pete Earley somehow got permission to go mingle with prisoners at USP Leavenworth for a year and write about it). A Bank Robber, 45 'They originally charged me with murder, kidnapping, and bank robbery, but I'm really just a bank robber with really bad luck. You see, my buddy and me were robbing this bank, and when…

> All I did was rob a bank I totally understand how somebody might look at that situation and say "gee, he did only rob a bank because the guy who died was his accomplice", but at the same time... he robbed a bank! Had he not robbed it, that life might not have been lost and a body would not have been taken from the scene of a crime. If you want to argue that the quality of one's lawyer plays a large part in the char…

> But, I'm not about to toss out the legal system because a criminal had a shitty time in court. Fuck this guy.

I don't think anyone is suggesting anything other than reform of how we prosecute laws in this country, there is an obvious imbalance at play here and cases like this highlight the problem.

Second.. sure, fuck that guy; but what about his family? His children? The community? Just because you put one person in jail does not mean that suffering and loss ends there.

What is the function of the justice system? To fulfill our base needs for revenge? Or is it a tool to improve society? If it's the latter, then "fuck that guy" is not a useful response.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#124

Post by Zak »

song wrote: post #94
mineshaftgap wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans don't cross an empty street against the light and register with the police every time they move. I am not sure you can really compare the two.

I've spent quite some time in Germany and well I'm sorry to shatter your bubble but Germans do cross an empty street when the light is red. I've even seen people party in nightclubs and go outside to drink vodka or other drinks they bought in their car. And to further tear your argument, Spanish who have a "reputation" in Europe of crossing by red light and of having a bit more of loose attitude towards rules have a…

The higher availability of guns in the US? The fact that the prison system in the US does not reform but punishes instead and convert first time convicts into hardened criminals? Other factors?

Probably not the guns. Germany has about a third the rate of gun ownership the US does and its rates of serious violent crimes, both with and without guns are much less than a third those of the US. All of Scandinavia, Switzerland and Iceland have high rates of gun ownership and even lower crime rates.

The prisons might have an impact, but I think at least as important is the post-release re-integration in to society. The parole system in the US is set up more to ensure that released prisoners can be easily subjected to further punishment if need be than to help them lead productive lives.

An important factor is that those countries have a distinct culture and sense of community. People are more willing to hurt others they don't see as part of a group to which they are loyal. I actually see the lack of cultural homogeneity as a strength for the US overall, but I think it tends to lead to more crime.

Another important factor is the relative lack of poverty in northwestern Europe. Someone who sees none of their prospective ways to earn a living legally leading to a comfortable lifestyle is more likely to consider illegal and antisocial approaches.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#125

Post by seanflyon »

fixxer wrote: post #118
downandout wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think this sentence was unjust, there is another Colorado prisoner named Michael Dipentino. He is currently serving a 305 year sentence. What was his heinous crime? According to the Denver DA [1] he created phony checks to buy $200,000 worth of postage stamps, that he later pawned or resold. He was facing a minimum of 96 years after his conviction, but the judge decided to give him 305 years. The "justice" sys…

Counterfeiting, IMO and apparently the opinion of the Government (we rarely agree, for the record), is basically on par with treason.

Counterfeiting seems to me to be on par with fraud and theft. Could you explain why you consider it to be on par with treason?

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#126

Post by aero142 »

mynameismonkey wrote: post #102
aero142 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often thought I need a medical agent for negotiating with hospitals and navigating my insurance. Do you know of anyone doing this? Might be a company idea in there somewhere. Medical negotiation agent.

http://billadvocates.com/ http://hospitalbillreview.com/ http://thekarisgroup.com/ lots and lots of these

Thanks for the list!

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#128

Post by refurb »

zaroth wrote: post #116
Dylan16807 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When felony murder kills a bystander through recklessness, that makes sense. Felony suicide should not count as felony murder by the partners. He got himself killed.

Now when a cop shoots you while you are trying to rob a bank, it's suicide? This seems like a perfect example of felony murder.

I'm with you. If said person had not decided to commit a crime, the person would likely not have died.

It's not different than if I were speeding recklessly, zoomed by some old person who gets scared, runs off the road and dies.

Maybe they shouldn't be charged with murder, but maybe manslaughter? Their actions directly contributed to the death of someone.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#129

Post by Torgo »

qiqing wrote: post #112
fixxer wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All I did was rob a bank I totally understand how somebody might look at that situation and say "gee, he did only rob a bank because the guy who died was his accomplice", but at the same time... he robbed a bank! Had he not robbed it, that life might not have been lost and a body would not have been taken from the scene of a crime. If you want to argue that the quality of one's lawyer plays a large part in the char…

The legal system is supposed to make punishments fit the crime, not heap arbitrarily much punishment on anyone who ever breaks any law ever. If you only never made any mistakes filling out your taxes, your moonshine business may still be thriving. If you only weren't selling loose cigarettes, you may still be alive... As someone who was once an illegal immigrant (though not in the U.S.), I say this completely unironi…

I think it does fit the crime, and it's not arbitrary. You get charged with crimes you committed because you didn't want to be caught committing a crime. "I moved the body because I was being chased by the cops" isn't a good excuse.

>As someone who was once an illegal immigrant

This is perfectly analogous. People in countries illegally sometimes engage in identity theft, illegal labor, and a variety of other things so they can stay in the country. The fact that someone "had to" so they could remain illegally in a country isn't a mitigating circumstance. I'm not at all insinuating it should escalate until you get shot, but if you get caught, you're culpable for every law you broke. Why would you not be?

Like, this is the simplest thing in the world. If you don't want to leave your friend's body behind if he gets shot while robbing a bank, don't rob a bank. You're not supposed to be doing that anyway. It's a threshold that everyone can meet. If you take the body, well, now you've committed another crime. I actually think that law makes a lot of sense.

Re: A man who was accidentally released from prison 88 years early

#130

Post by fixxer »

akira2501 wrote: post #123
fixxer wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All I did was rob a bank I totally understand how somebody might look at that situation and say "gee, he did only rob a bank because the guy who died was his accomplice", but at the same time... he robbed a bank! Had he not robbed it, that life might not have been lost and a body would not have been taken from the scene of a crime. If you want to argue that the quality of one's lawyer plays a large part in the char…

> But, I'm not about to toss out the legal system because a criminal had a shitty time in court. Fuck this guy. I don't think anyone is suggesting anything other than reform of how we prosecute laws in this country, there is an obvious imbalance at play here and cases like this highlight the problem. Second.. sure, fuck that guy; but what about his family? His children? The community? Just because you put one person…

Oh, the children! What about the children?

What does it matter? He robbed a bank! Someone died! He chose to break his contract with society. If I did that, I would expect zero considerations be made for my two kids. It is my responsibility to never put them in such a position.

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