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Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

news.stanford.edu

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Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#21

Post by danmaz74 »

dogma1138 wrote: post #18
mikeyouse wrote: post #5

Likely as a direct response to the hype of this article (a few thousand comments in the related reddit thread), Elon tweeted: Battery "breakthroughs" need to state power *and* energy density (not the same thing), plus how long they last. They usually fail on energy. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/585185843649716225

Or at least state the voltage of each cell, if it's going to be 1.2v per cell (replacing AA/AAA batteries) it's hardly something that can ever replace current LiX batteries in consumer electronics.

The article states the voltage to be 2v.

Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#22

Post by stcredzero »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #16
mikeyouse wrote: post #5

Likely as a direct response to the hype of this article (a few thousand comments in the related reddit thread), Elon tweeted: Battery "breakthroughs" need to state power *and* energy density (not the same thing), plus how long they last. They usually fail on energy. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/585185843649716225

Exactly. Energy density is a real bugaboo. Lemons with zinc in them are really economic and safe batteries, you can cut them, mash them, and literally make lemonade out of them. They grow on trees and just simple to make zinc strips. Except they can't power an LED for longer than about a minute. Admittedly they are not rechargable. Which is not to slam the investigation into new (or rediscovered) battery chemistries.…

They grow on trees and just simple to make zinc strips. Except they can't power an LED for longer than about a minute. Admittedly they are not rechargable.

Electrodes can literally be had for pennies!

Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#24

Post by weland »

mikeyouse wrote: post #5

Likely as a direct response to the hype of this article (a few thousand comments in the related reddit thread), Elon tweeted: Battery "breakthroughs" need to state power *and* energy density (not the same thing), plus how long they last. They usually fail on energy. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/585185843649716225

It's important to note, though, that this kind of breakthrough is hardly the kind of invention that Musk is interested in. The world of batteries doesn't revolve around Elon and Tesla.

This is sort of a big deal for those of us who design small electronic devices, not electric cars. Not having to factor in the potential fire hazard of a rechargeable battery for a keychain that the user has in his pocket or thrown in her purse or luggage is pretty useful -- and many such devices are thrown away along with their batteries, making them even bigger an environmental problem than they already are.

Even if these devices offer no improvement in terms of energy density, they're still a pretty big deal. It's also worth remembering that Li-Ion and even Li-Po batteries weren't necessarily stellar in terms of energy density when they were discovered, either -- they reached their current status through quite some industrial development.

It's also helpful if they can really stay steady at 2V (before the discharge cycle goes down abruptly), that would simplify 1.5V designs a lot, and help drive the space (and price!) further down.

Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#25

Post by IkmoIkmo »

Ugh, getting tired of all these articles that may not be untrue, but ought to live in science journals, properly read as experiments with new battery tech that could deliver to consumers 5-10 years later, rather than get posted on social media as if they're consumer-grade product launches. I've read tens of breakthroughs in batteries and solar and so on, in channels that had no interest in the science behind it. HN is mostly the exception to the rule.

Anyway, is there a battery guy that could explain to the rest of us what the state of battery innovation is like the next 10 years? Is it realistic to expect some big leaps? I really don't know what to expect and it'd be awesome to get some insider insights as to what kind of consumer-grade products we may see the next decade :) Thanks in advance.

Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#26

Post by algirau »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #25

Ugh, getting tired of all these articles that may not be untrue, but ought to live in science journals, properly read as experiments with new battery tech that could deliver to consumers 5-10 years later, rather than get posted on social media as if they're consumer-grade product launches. I've read tens of breakthroughs in batteries and solar and so on, in channels that had no interest in the science behind it. HN i…

Battery innovation is actually bottle-necked by the fact that over 90% of all anode materials are produced in China. So global adoption is ultimately dictated if manufacturing in China follows suit.

Unlike Americans, where we innovate with a short time horizon, China innovates and invest for generations (25-100 years). Thus, once a technology has been chose to be invested in overseas, the Chinese go "all-in".

The current paradigm shift is that Chinese anode material manufacturers are switching from graphite based electrodes to silicon nanoparticle based electrodes due to the fact that silicon nanoparticles have a theoretical energy density of ~4,000mAh/g, a 10x increase when compared to graphite which is only ~350mAh/g. There has been substantial research on silicon based lithium-ion batteries in the US for the past 7 years; it is now hitting a true inflection point.

This is one of the few "break-though" battery chemistries that is now entering full scale production - Panasonic is producing an 18650 cell made of silicon used by Tesla. *(see also Amprius, Envia,XG Sciences, etc.)

Tl;dr battery adoption is limited by adoption by Chinese manufacturers which control over 90% of the global anode material manufacturing. Silicon nanoparticles are taking over.

Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#27

Post by IkmoIkmo »

algirau wrote: post #26
IkmoIkmo wrote: post #25

Ugh, getting tired of all these articles that may not be untrue, but ought to live in science journals, properly read as experiments with new battery tech that could deliver to consumers 5-10 years later, rather than get posted on social media as if they're consumer-grade product launches. I've read tens of breakthroughs in batteries and solar and so on, in channels that had no interest in the science behind it. HN i…

Battery innovation is actually bottle-necked by the fact that over 90% of all anode materials are produced in China. So global adoption is ultimately dictated if manufacturing in China follows suit. Unlike Americans, where we innovate with a short time horizon, China innovates and invest for generations (25-100 years). Thus, once a technology has been chose to be invested in overseas, the Chinese go "all-in". The cur…

Sweet, thanks! So what would that (e.g. 10x the energy density) mean for consumers in practice. Can we expect 4x the range on a car, or the lifetime on a phone? Is this something we'll see around 2020, later, earlier?

Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#28

Post by algirau »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #27
algirau wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery innovation is actually bottle-necked by the fact that over 90% of all anode materials are produced in China. So global adoption is ultimately dictated if manufacturing in China follows suit. Unlike Americans, where we innovate with a short time horizon, China innovates and invest for generations (25-100 years). Thus, once a technology has been chose to be invested in overseas, the Chinese go "all-in". The cur…

Sweet, thanks! So what would that (e.g. 10x the energy density) mean for consumers in practice. Can we expect 4x the range on a car, or the lifetime on a phone? Is this something we'll see around 2020, later, earlier?

Unfortunately, there are several items that interfere with maximizing the 10X. Then anode is only ~16% of the entire battery, so increasing the anode energy density by 10X does not translate directly to 10X battery life. You must also consider the cathode, and separator which can hinder this. Remember the 10X is a "theoretical maximum". It is important to constantly increase the theoretical maximum energy density. Translating the theoretical to an actual energy density is about downstream processing - see how Tesla increases battery efficiency each year by make the processing more efficient.

Amprius was promising 10X increase, but once they reach ton-scale manufacturing they were only able to get a 30-50% increase. I am sure they will be able to gradually increase close to the 10X maximum by making processing more efficient.

tl;dr battery material processing into the actual battery is where most of the batteries lose there performance. Step (1) Increase theoretical energy density by finding new material; Step (2) focus on battery processing to approach theoretical maximum.

Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#29

Post by algirau »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #27
algirau wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery innovation is actually bottle-necked by the fact that over 90% of all anode materials are produced in China. So global adoption is ultimately dictated if manufacturing in China follows suit. Unlike Americans, where we innovate with a short time horizon, China innovates and invest for generations (25-100 years). Thus, once a technology has been chose to be invested in overseas, the Chinese go "all-in". The cur…

Sweet, thanks! So what would that (e.g. 10x the energy density) mean for consumers in practice. Can we expect 4x the range on a car, or the lifetime on a phone? Is this something we'll see around 2020, later, earlier?

I believe we will see it much earlier than 2020. The DOE has mandated that they want to see lithium-ion batteries 5X in capacity and 5X cheaper by 2020.

I think it can be done. If would happen much faster if we manufactured here and did not have to worry about international logistical and quality assurance associate with Chinese manufacturing.

Re: Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

#30

Post by algirau »

weland wrote: post #24
mikeyouse wrote: post #5

Likely as a direct response to the hype of this article (a few thousand comments in the related reddit thread), Elon tweeted: Battery "breakthroughs" need to state power *and* energy density (not the same thing), plus how long they last. They usually fail on energy. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/585185843649716225

It's important to note, though, that this kind of breakthrough is hardly the kind of invention that Musk is interested in. The world of batteries doesn't revolve around Elon and Tesla. This is sort of a big deal for those of us who design small electronic devices, not electric cars. Not having to factor in the potential fire hazard of a rechargeable battery for a keychain that the user has in his pocket or thrown in…

The global energy storage market is and will continue to be driven by electric vehicles (no pun intended!) and consumer electronics. For these applications a faster charge/discharge is nice to have, a non-flammable material is nice to have but a high energy density is a MUST HAVE which Aluminum-ions don't.

My interpretation of a big deal is relative to the number of people it will positively influence. I wouldn't consider this a big deal, and in fact have heard the same claim at least once per month (ex. Titanium dioxide nanotube batteries http://www.gizmag.com/quick-charge-li-ion-battery/34347/).

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