Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn • Hacker News Board

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#221

Post by dragontamer » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #209

dragontamer wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Swatting is a serious concern. How do you think we should solve the issue? Have the police sit around doing nothing because they don't have the legal tools to look at business metadata? I'm trying to bring up an actual issue here. For a hundred years, the "metadata" standard has applied to mail, telephone records, business records and so forth as "free game" for the Police. What makes the modern era so differen…

1. It was not free game. They could not take copies preemptively. 2. There is vastly more metadata being stored now, and the police don't need access to most of it. We might even be better off with laws against storing it.

> 1. It was not free game. They could not take copies preemptively.

Wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mai...

It's been free-game for a hundred years. Keep up with the law dude. USPS "metadata" has been copied and tracked. Such information was used for the Anthrax cases of early 2000s... and other such crimes.

It is illegal for police to read the contents of an envelope, but they can (and have been) scanning the outside of envelopes and storing that metadata for police use for decades.

The difference between snail-mail and the business records provision is... terrorism was added to the words. But I'd bet what they were doing was legal before the Patriot Act was made.

> 2. There is vastly more metadata being stored now, and the police don't need access to most of it. We might even be better off with laws against storing it.

That doesn't answer the question. How do you expect to track down a Swatter without using metadata?

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#222

Post by LLWM » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:16 PM UTC

Estragon wrote: post #182

LLWM wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA is very explicit that their goal is to perform legal surveillance to safeguard the security of the US. Since the truth is secret, to believe either party's goals are as they say is purely a matter of trust.

The NSA has been proven to lie to its overseers repeatedly over the course of decades while Snowden has been proven to lie to the NSA in order to expose its lies. Personally, I regard Snowden's behavior to be more trustworthy in this respect.

Ah, the good old two-wrongs-make-a-right school of morality.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#223

Post by EthanHeilman » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:17 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #200

tessierashpool wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden's a hero and deserves his place on that memorial. This whole deal with the people putting up a statue of a hero and the government tearing it down? Not what America's supposed to be about. Combine that with the fact that most of the senators who voted for the Patriot Act probably read 1984, and didn't object to the obvious propaganda in the name Patriot Act? Not what America's supposed to be about either.

Snowden is a traitor who happened to bring up an important debate. Probably sold US secrets to China and Russia, while releasing public information so that he can have public support while doing so. He's one of the most successful double-agents in history, with excellent public relations. If a double-agent were to happen again in the future, they'll do what they can to study how Snowden handled his case. No, I don't…

I think you are getting downvotes because you are making very controversial claims for which the evidence is very weak. For instance:

1. you say: "most successful double-agents in history"

2. you say: "probably sold US secrets to China and Russia"

The NSA's leadership has repeatedly stated that they don't believe Snowden to be a foreign agent[0]. Unless you have more evidence than "based on the countries he fled to and who he is working with currently", your case is exceptionally weak. Additionally Snowden is not a "double agent". A double agent is a agent that is turned twice[1]. Even if Snowden were a foreign spy, he wouldn't be a double agent, unless he was recruited to work by a foreign government to spy on the US, but then was turned by the US to feed the foreign government misinformation. A theory that no one, outside of Alex Jones, is currently advancing.

[0]: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/03/nsa-chief-micha...

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_agent

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#224

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:17 PM UTC

ics wrote: post #212

Dylan16807 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hiding is totally unrelated to removal, which is totally unrelated to realizing that it's a statue . So yes very different. And if they wanted to set up something dangerous, it would be easier to make it hidden. There's no good reason to suspect the statue is dangerous.

No, it's the universal sign for "this is the thing that needs to be removed". Unfortunately they don't have cones which read "unauthorized object subject to removal immediately" which would get the point across while preserving people's ability to see it until it was removed or properly evaluated. That would make the whole issue of removal look even more Orwellian though, would it not? The reason why I brought up the…

Something getting on my computer has massive potential to be malicious, and has bypassed security to get there.

A statue stuck in a park has no more potential to be malicious than a random rock, and has not bypassed meaningful security.

That's a big difference.

The argument of "it exists, therefore it 'could' be malicious" is trash. They 'could' alter anything in the park to be malicious. In the computer scenario I'm not worried because I know they put the image there. I'm worried because I know they could have put a malicious payload anywhere in the system, and I wouldn't be able to find it. But a park never has security. It's always true that someone could bring a malicious object into a park and stick it somewhere random.

It's okay to remove the statue, it's foolish to act like it's scary, and it's annoyingly political that it gets ultra-top-priority and covered with a tarp.

And just because department policy is to overreact doesn't make it valid to overreact. I hope Boston is mocked forever for their reaction to blinking lights, especially because they were doing it out of fear of blame. Fear of blame is a terrible motivator.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#225

Post by teammatters » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:18 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #23

teammatters wrote: post #20

Why is Edward Snowden a hero? He divulged sensitive U.S. documents and information that now bad actors use to exploit/harm the US. Further, he knew what he was doing was against the law and ran as far away as he could to avoid facing the consequences(Bradley, now Chelsea Manning as far as I know didnt run like a coward). Now he's a pawn between Russia and US relations. The information he divulged that we are being wa…

He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. He ran away to avoid the extrajudicial punishment Chelsea Manning experienced - years of pre-trial solitary confinement with such privileges as clothing being arbitrarily revoked. You can't say that the information he divulged was both known and sensitive without being pretty laughable, by the way.

I was speaking in general terms.

In 2006 I recall seeing reports of the NSA's activities. Back then it didn't go into all the details that he later divulged.

Further, all those small details are now being exploited against the US by bad actors. I know this via someone who works in cyber security for the Govt.

Obviously I hold the unpopular opinion here, as most dudes 18 to 40 in tech circles exalt him as a hero.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#226

Post by plainOldText » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:19 PM UTC

ics wrote: post #162

plainOldText wrote: post #62

It's interesting to see that these people (1) installed the bust in such a way that it can be easily removed without damaging the existing structure and (2) went to great lengths to ensure that the new design is honoring the aesthetics that were already in place. One can argue otherwise, but I think this is a very creative and considerate form of protest which btw is also non-violent.

As I said in another response: it's a political statement made with public art. As far as Parks and Rec is concerned, it's big heavy piece of vandalism, the integrity of which they know nothing about. To put this in a programmer's perspective: imagine if artists wanting to make political statements suddenly started littering your linux kernel with binary blobs which caused your boot screen to flash an image of Snowde…

Absolutely, you can define this act as vandalism. And although I appreciate you framed your analogy such that it can be understood by the HN audience, it does not account for the nature of these two systems, Linux kernel vs social groups. You cannot always transfer the techniques or properties which work in one world, to another, and expect similar results.

The Linux kernel represents a collection of modules, which are predictable and fairly reliable, and as such the Linux kernel is to a certain extent fairly deterministic. A small change compromises the integrity of the entire system, as defined by its checksums.

People on the other hand are not as predictable and not at all reliable when compared to code bases. Therefore, a collection of individuals is a fairly probabilistic system. And as such, a small change in someone's, albeit not harmful behavior, will do little to compromise the integrity of our society.

And by the say, the Linux kernel you were talking about (for which supposedly you have the checksums) is static, whereas you could better describe our society as a dynamic, ever evolving system. You wouldn't compute the checksums of a running program, now would you?

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#227

Post by dragontamer » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:20 PM UTC

EthanHeilman wrote: post #223

dragontamer wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden is a traitor who happened to bring up an important debate. Probably sold US secrets to China and Russia, while releasing public information so that he can have public support while doing so. He's one of the most successful double-agents in history, with excellent public relations. If a double-agent were to happen again in the future, they'll do what they can to study how Snowden handled his case. No, I don't…

I think you are getting downvotes because you are making very controversial claims for which the evidence is very weak. For instance: 1. you say: "most successful double-agents in history" 2. you say: "probably sold US secrets to China and Russia" The NSA's leadership has repeatedly stated that they don't believe Snowden to be a foreign agent[0]. Unless you have more evidence than "based on the countries he fled to a…

Thank you for the link.

Nonetheless, the Metadata debate remains important, so I'll continue to bring it up. I've read through the rest of these threads, and they're all "Snowden's a hero!!!" without even touching upon the debate that he's brought up.

EDIT: Its as if this "metadata collection" is the most evil thing in the world ever done. Good gosh. Its still hugely ironic to me that Snowden fled to the state with the "Great Firewall of China" literally spying on every Chinese blogger with police powers that make those guys _literally_ disappear if they say the wrong things...

While over here in the US, this forum gets their panties in a twist over metadata collection.

I am happy that we all hold the US to a higher standard, but I still hold my point: to take down a Swatter, the Police will need access to metatdata.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#228

Post by teammatters » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:21 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #200

tessierashpool wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden's a hero and deserves his place on that memorial. This whole deal with the people putting up a statue of a hero and the government tearing it down? Not what America's supposed to be about. Combine that with the fact that most of the senators who voted for the Patriot Act probably read 1984, and didn't object to the obvious propaganda in the name Patriot Act? Not what America's supposed to be about either.

Snowden is a traitor who happened to bring up an important debate. Probably sold US secrets to China and Russia, while releasing public information so that he can have public support while doing so. He's one of the most successful double-agents in history, with excellent public relations. If a double-agent were to happen again in the future, they'll do what they can to study how Snowden handled his case. No, I don't…

I agree and I witnessed the World Trade Center fall before my eyes.

I upvoted you! Of course this account I created is going to probably die because I express the unpopular opinion too!

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#229

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:25 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #221

Dylan16807 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It was not free game. They could not take copies preemptively. 2. There is vastly more metadata being stored now, and the police don't need access to most of it. We might even be better off with laws against storing it.

> 1. It was not free game. They could not take copies preemptively. Wrong. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mai... It's been free-game for a hundred years. Keep up with the law dude. USPS "metadata" has been copied and tracked. Such information was used for the Anthrax cases of early 2000s... and other such crimes. It is illegal for police to read the contents of an envelope, but they can (and…

Okay, doing it for decades doesn't mean they need it. It wasn't there from the start.

>How do you expect to track down a Swatter without using metadata?

As I said in my other post, you don't actually need call records to find a swatter. They called the police, the police have the number, tada. I'm not arguing against deleting everything that could possibly classify as metadata, I'm saying we should cut down the types of metadata available. And we need to stop the government from making copies of private data 'just in case' and declaring it not to be a search/seizure until some later stage.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#230

Post by briandear » Mon, Apr 06, 2015, 9:26 PM UTC

hristov wrote: post #87

hullo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.

I don't think so. If it is something unauthorized they probably would have removed it in due time. I.e., they would have taken a couple of days to hire professionals to do it. Now they immediately cover it up so that no-one can see it while they arrange for its removal. Why? Obviously they do not want anyone to look at it before it is removed. But why not? It is certainly not offensive in any way. It may prove to be…

"Not offensive in any way.." That' certainly subjective. Comparing Snowden as a war hero could be offensive to those that actually fought in wars. If they put it in the Nathan Hale statue at CIA, now that would be ironic.

I'm on a the fence about Snowden, however disrespecting a war memorial to prove a point seems to border on tasteless. How about putting a Snowden statue in front of an AT&T store; that would be better messaging in terms of protest without disrespecting actual war heros.