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New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

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Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#491
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this, it's a good idea getting people to rate how negative their comments are... it would certainly be an interesting exercise, although it may just show that those who leave negative comments don't think they are being negative, whereas the people that can be bothered rating the negativity of others are probably more sensitive to negativity.

Self-rating the negativity of your comment is designed to force you to acknowledge that HN wants you to think and be reasonable. The OP's blog post suggests that "Gentle reminders by peers" will make the culture better. I think these gentle reminders by peers in practice will whip everyone into a frenzy of hunting for negativity, naming negativity, blaming for negativity, being defensive about negativity, judging and…

Negativity is only bad if it's used to speak for other's feelings. You actually don't know if it will whip everyone into a frenzy. :)

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> were written in all earnestness with intention of productive dialogue. That doesn't mean downvotes were for disagreement. Just because you intended it to contribute to productive dialogue doesn't mean that downvoters didn't think that it failed to provide a substantive contribution. Your argument seems to recognize that people can disagree with you on your message, but seems equally to fail to recognize that people…

> That doesn't mean downvotes were for disagreement. Just because you intended it to contribute to productive dialogue doesn't mean that downvoters didn't think that it failed to provide a substantive contribution. > Your argument seems to recognize that people can disagree with you on your message, but seems equally to fail to recognize that people can disagree with you over whether the message was, independent of a…

> Perhaps you started writing your reply before I amended my post to add "without a single reply to indicate exactly what anyone's problem with such a post could possibly be".

It is not generally the practice to comment to explain downvotes, and, IMO -- especially given the absence of collapsed threads on HN, but even if it were present -- it would defeat the point of downvoting and decrease the signal-to-noise ratio to do so, as then meta-discussion of the problem with posts would take more real estate, at the expense of the worthwhile discussion of the topic at hand.

> But less than one in ten heavily-downvoted posts that I read, has a reply to indicate why that post was downvoted. I feel that number is low.

I actually feel that that number is too high. If a comment is worth responding to, its probably not worth downvoting, and if it ought to be downvoted, responding is counterproductive.

> Like I said, it's as though readers need to be "protected" from reading your post (by making it harder to read)

Well, yes, the whole point of moderation, community or otherwise, is to suppress content that is outside of what is desired for the forum so as to maintain the character that is intended for the forum.

Put bluntly, censorship based on the community perception of how well posts align with the ideals expressed in the guidelines is the whole purpose of having downvotes. It is, by design, fairly soft censorship that doesn't (through downvotes alone) actually make the content unavailable, but it is exactly to protect the community from the unwanted content interfering with the wanted content.

> which is patronizing to readers and a bit harsh to the author of the post

I don't think its patronizing to the reader to hold out a representation of what the purpose of the forum is and to minimize the visibiity of content that the community has found to be out of line with that purpose. Nor do I find the manner in which HN does it "harsh to the author", despite myself having had many comments go gray -- though far fewer stay there.

In fact, I've often found that a comment going gray triggers my own review and reconsideration, and an edit which makes me happier with the comment. Or results in me deleting a comment which on reflection I realize was ill-considered.

> Greying-out earnest comments merely because they are useless (and remember that's in the best case) is over the line because the consequence of a false positive is too high and the threshold for it to happen (again - one downvote) is too low

I disagree. While its true that a slight greying that lets you know that a comment has been downvoted occurs at a net of one downvote, I don't see that as a "too high" consequence of a false positive. The slight greying at that level doesn't impair readability, and if anything draws more attention to the post. Its only at higher levels of downvoting that there is a substantial negative consequence.

I fail to see the harm you are concerned about here. Perhaps its just being around a long time in online forums, but I think the consequences of no moderation (and voting that doesn't actually reduce the visibility of negatively-voted comments at some point is "no moderation" for this purpose), or of relying primarily on centralized moderation rather than community moderations, are much worse than HN's style of community moderation. And while there are different styles of community moderation (e.g., those used at Slashdot or Reddit), I don't see any clear evidence that they produce better results than HN's.

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#493
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it just regular negative of me to say statements like that one are horrible, or it is gratuitously negative? That is gratuitously negative because you are not contributing anything to the conversation except your opinion. While everyone tends to think their own opinion is an incredibly valuable gift to the world, the world rarely receives it as such. > Am I being a critical thinker when I say that, whenever I he…

First and foremost, I would like to have a friendly laugh at you deriding opinions, then following it up with a long post of your opinions. But I don't have any criticism of what you said simply because it is your opinion. In fact, I (and many HNers) value the opinions of others (critical or otherwise), especially those of people who are especially intelligent or experienced. If opinions were worthless, the world wou…

He is right though, I also think your post was a perfect example of gratious negativity. However as this shows, it needs exceptional people with a high level of self reflection and lots of practice at discussions to even realize what is and isnt gratious negativity. For that reason I dont think this new rule will have any effect on this site because there are simply not enough people to vote according to this new rule and punish people who violate it.

Even if we do explain to you how your comment was gratiously negative, you will simply not agree and that's that. There won't be any tangible consequences to your disagreement and therefore you won't change. I think this is the core problem of online discussions: Without consequences, people dont change. This is also why sites like Stackoverflow work well: It has (positive) consequences if you contribute well. (="internet points") but it's easier there because those are purely technical discussions with clear goals and non-goals.

Life isn't so focussed in non-technical areas. So let's take your comment: You start with saying "statements like these are horrible" which is a personal opinion of yours without any backing evidence which you START with. So you start with something unsubstantiated and yet it's already very negative. In the real world this would more obviously be seen as poor social skills: Dont just start out a discussion by saying the other guy's opinion is horrible and then later on "maybe" add some points to underline that. Make your points FIRST and then at the end with a large disclaimer say your personal opinion if you really have to. Imagine every comment here to be a job interview. You wouldnt talk with adjectives like "horrible" at your interview. It's inprecise, it's pointless. You would instead say "statements like these are a little too inprecise because it's hard to qualify what is and isnt 'gratious' negativity." See how I completely omitted the word "horrible" yet the message was unchanged, no even better: the message has now more substance at the same wordcount. NOW I think you know what is meant by gratious negativity. Things that add wordcount without adding substance - yet being negative at the same time. As another poster has pointed out, there should and can be a similar rule about positivity.

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also like the (related) idea of an Ideological Turing Test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideological_Turing_Test

That's a really good idea; you shouldn't just be able to restate the opposing argument as a devil's advocate, you should be able to understand all the arguments well enough to make them as effectively as any advocate. And you shouldn't sound like a caricature of that position unless all advocates of that position sound equally ridiculous.

"you shouldn't sound like a caricature of that position unless all advocates of that position sound equally ridiculous"

No, you owe it to yourself to make the best possible argument for the other side's position. It might still sound ridiculous in the end, but you really want to nail it and understand the argument. If for no other reason to expand your thinking on your side.

Sadly, you probably should also understand the sound bites, but that is concession to how the world works and not your own education.

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#495
One of the main ways gratuitous negativity is found here is in downvoting of comments for anything other than trolling. There are many well-meaning comments that are downvoted that should not be. It makes the membership of this site look ugly (those that do the downvoting, anyway). It is bad enough in some cases that I have taken it as a badge of honor; to my mind that means it's not really serving its purpose.

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#496
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps what abalone is referring to is anything seemingly positive that doesn't add any value to the discussion should also be pointed out. In other words, gratuitous comments in general, positive or negative, should not be supported. For example, we see lots of "XYZ just raised $10mil" on here and the comment section is littered with "Congrats Jim!". Should we not be downvoting those too so we keep the consistency…

Unwarranted positivity simply isn't as harmful as unwarranted negativity. There's basic psychology behind that, for instance, loss aversion.

I think our industry has seen more money lost, late nights spent, and souls damaged to "Unwarranted positivity" then any other cause.

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#497
post #8

One of the most negative habits is in my opinion the failure to read a comment charitably (to make an effort to interpret it in the best possible light). Instead, people often tend to misread or miserunderstand what's being said, only to use the opportunity to write a "correction" based on that false impression. A worse flavor of the same problem is a misunderstanding that is then used to justify outrage or personal…

[deleted]

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't mean downvotes were for disagreement. Just because you intended it to contribute to productive dialogue doesn't mean that downvoters didn't think that it failed to provide a substantive contribution. > Your argument seems to recognize that people can disagree with you on your message, but seems equally to fail to recognize that people can disagree with you over whether the message was, independent of a…

> Perhaps you started writing your reply before I amended my post to add "without a single reply to indicate exactly what anyone's problem with such a post could possibly be". It is not generally the practice to comment to explain downvotes, and, IMO -- especially given the absence of collapsed threads on HN, but even if it were present -- it would defeat the point of downvoting and decrease the signal-to-noise ratio…

Well, since you've staked out your reply in direct and total point-by-point opposition to my own, bizarro-world style, there isn't much room for discussion. I will address one thing:

> It is not generally the practice to comment to explain downvotes, and, IMO -- especially given the absence of collapsed threads on HN, but even if it were present -- it would defeat the point of downvoting and decrease the signal-to-noise ratio to do so, as then meta-discussion of the problem with posts would take more real estate, at the expense of the worthwhile discussion of the topic at hand.

I am not suggesting that every single downvote warrants an explanation. I thought that was obvious. But if you look at the two extremes:

* No downvote is ever expanded on in a comment by the downvoter. The site rules themselves will explain some of the downvotes. However, alone they do a poor job of encapsulating what this community considers productive and unproductive discussion. We usually don't know why downvotes are happening. Nothing improves unless mods take direct action to make it happen, as this community has no mechanism for self-regulation.

* Every downvote is explained. I gather you believe this is the worse of the two extremes and I agree. The forum disappears up its own asshole in endless boring meta-discussion and everyone leaves.

Downvotes should be explained sometimes. My one-in-ten figure from before was a total guess. I haven't harvested any data and I don't have any spreadsheets, but I too often see greyed-out posts that I can't for the life of me figure out why they were downvoted. As in, even if I approach it with an unusually high degree of cynicism I still can't guess at a reason. It's gotten to the point that if I see a grey post I'll just automatically upvote it even if I don't read it. I encourage others to do the same.

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate being that guy but when I see people that are inexplicably angry I try to understand where they're coming from and that inevitably involves being a creepy internet stalker. I couldn't find anything that would concretely explain the anger but I did find that they seem to have a consistent chip on their shoulder, to the point where I had to stop reading because the negativity was starting to make me quite angry…

For those that are curious, brazzle and myself got into it a while back about his league of legends addiction and he's kind of kept tabs on me ever since. For those who can think critically though, the post he's referencing was about 1.5 years ago. An awful lot of reading for someone who did nothing more than state an opinion about not wasting time on people.

>For those that are curious, brazzle and myself got into it a while back about his league of legends addiction and he's kind of kept tabs on me ever since.

Are you being serious?

>An awful lot of reading for someone who did nothing more than state an opinion about not wasting time on people.

Not if you're picking posts at random. And you've done more than that and you know it. If nothing else you know it from the reaction you've garnered. In expanding on your opinion you've revealed someone that's either very negative or very much blind to normal human interaction norms even if we take into account relative cultural values.

That post from 1.5 years ago was absolutely vitriolic. If you think people respond to you this way repeatedly on different forums because they're stupid I can only assume you think so because of insecurity. Intelligence amounts to little without wisdom to guide it and only someone without wisdom would ignore the obvious pattern and common denominator.

Re: New Hacker News Guideline: Avoid Gratuitous Negativity

#500
This is just a terrible idea. Will I have this comment flagged for expressing this?

A thought experiment. If you and some others are in a car, and it's just driven off a cliff, and as you are falling you say to the other occupants, "We've just driven off a cliff! Lets open the door and get out of here!" is that gratuitous negativity? No, it's the truth.

Most people, in this car, don't want to hear the truth. As they say, ignorance is bliss. Stop being so negative! Saying we've driven off a cliff is getting me down! So shutup!

The thing is, reality is not all sunshine and rainbows. There are some very hard realities unfolding in the world right now. Remove the ability to make negative comments and now you can't criticise things. The car driving off the cliff is a metaphor for our society which now openly tortures, wages a never ending false war on terror, and is a government of wolves that's using incrementalism to roll out a police state. We double tap drone strike weddings, we snoop on every communication on the planet. And when it's found out, absolutely nothing changes, because we are already captured. We are already prisoners.

This is not negativity. This is reality. This is the truth. Some people, when faced with this, want to shake people, wake them up and say 'lets fix this'. But most want to bury their head in the sand. They want to gag the words. They want to shoot the messenger. And then go back to sleep in their ivory tower, hoping that they will die of old age before the consequences really come home to roost.

For a group of supposedly smart people, this is incredibly dumb. I've just finished reading Foucault's "Discipline and Punish" to try and get a better understanding of the societal structure of prisons and punishment to better understand the times I live in. And most of what's in that book would be deemed by a lot of people here as 'gratuitous negativity'. And yet Foucault was one of the great minds of our time. Under this guideline his ideas are no longer welcome. And so it goes.

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” ― George Orwell

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