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How to Sell Excellence

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Re: How to Sell Excellence

#21

Post by dustingetz »

ryandvm wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding inflammatory... I would be willing to believe that purely functional languages are the "one true way" if there were even the slightest bit of empirical evidence to support it. But where are all the successful large scale projects built with Haskell (or Clojure or whatever)? The biggest FP project I was aware of was Twitter using Scala and they ended up completely backing away from it. Yikes. T…

> Twitter using Scala and they ended up completely backing away from it. Yikes.

What are you talking about, I just searched and found zero supporting sources

Re: How to Sell Excellence

#22

Post by solomatov »

r0naa wrote: post #8
solomatov wrote: post #6

I disagree with the presentation a lot. * There's no widely used successful system written in Haskell. Yes, there's GHC, Agda, Idris and other research tools but they are marginal. * It's untrue that mutable state is the main reason of problems with code. You can manage state in Java and C# in any other language. * Haskell programmers are usually smarter than Java programmers, but they often don't want to work on tas…

> You can manage state in Java and C# in any other language. Yes but I think that the "value prop" with Haskell is that it forces everyone to abide to a certain discipline with respect to type safety and immutability. > they are marginal. Relative to what/whom? All the projects you have quoted are really successful and directly or indirectly pushed mainstream software engineering forward (i.e safer style).

>Yes but I think that the "value prop" with Haskell is that it forces everyone to abide to a certain discipline with respect to type safety and immutability.

Thanks, to a large number of extensions with questionable utility, it's very easy to write not only unmaintainable code, but just unreadable code.

>Relative to what/whom? All the projects you have quoted are really successful and directly or indirectly pushed mainstream software engineering forward (i.e safer style).

They aren't safer style. They are more related to math than to programming. I believe, they could have benefitted from being implemented in more mainstream language than Haskell.

Re: How to Sell Excellence

#23

Post by solomatov »

dragonwriter wrote: post #12
solomatov wrote: post #6

I disagree with the presentation a lot. * There's no widely used successful system written in Haskell. Yes, there's GHC, Agda, Idris and other research tools but they are marginal. * It's untrue that mutable state is the main reason of problems with code. You can manage state in Java and C# in any other language. * Haskell programmers are usually smarter than Java programmers, but they often don't want to work on tas…

> There's no widely used successful system written in Haskell. Yes, there's GHC, Agda, Idris and other research tools but they are marginal. Google's Ganeti? Microsoft's Bond? > It's untrue that mutable state is the main reason of problems with code. Its certainly one of the biggest, if not the single biggest (the only thing I can think of that gets cited nearly as much is multithreading/parallelism, and the main sou…

>Google's Ganeti? Microsoft's Bond?

Only 2 known products for 20+ years of being widely known and available is unimpressive.

Re: How to Sell Excellence

#24

Post by solomatov »

rdtsc wrote: post #13
ryandvm wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding inflammatory... I would be willing to believe that purely functional languages are the "one true way" if there were even the slightest bit of empirical evidence to support it. But where are all the successful large scale projects built with Haskell (or Clojure or whatever)? The biggest FP project I was aware of was Twitter using Scala and they ended up completely backing away from it. Yikes. T…

> But where are all the successful large scale projects built with Haskell (or Clojure or whatever)? How about Erlang. Let's try it, just from the top of my head: * AXD 301 Switch -- Classic. Powers and control phone switch networks of whole countries. Claims 99.9999999% reliability. * Basho Riak -- popular NoSQL database, highly scalable nodes are peers * RabbitMQ -- popular message queue used by enterprises * Whats…

> How about Erlang. Let's try it, just from the top of my head.

Erlang isn' purely functional language in the same sense as Haskell is. It's much more mainstream compared to it.

Clojure has even less of it. It's basically LISP which is about 60 years old.

Re: How to Sell Excellence

#25

Post by dragonwriter »

solomatov wrote: post #23
dragonwriter wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no widely used successful system written in Haskell. Yes, there's GHC, Agda, Idris and other research tools but they are marginal. Google's Ganeti? Microsoft's Bond? > It's untrue that mutable state is the main reason of problems with code. Its certainly one of the biggest, if not the single biggest (the only thing I can think of that gets cited nearly as much is multithreading/parallelism, and the main sou…

>Google's Ganeti? Microsoft's Bond? Only 2 known products for 20+ years of being widely known and available is unimpressive.

Those aren't the only two known projects, those are just two examples of open source projects that are, in addition, used in key infrastructure by the major solutions provider that is the original source of the project, and so widely, if indirectly, used.

More Haskell use in production: https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_in_industry

Re: How to Sell Excellence

#26

Post by coolsunglasses »

ryandvm wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding inflammatory... I would be willing to believe that purely functional languages are the "one true way" if there were even the slightest bit of empirical evidence to support it. But where are all the successful large scale projects built with Haskell (or Clojure or whatever)? The biggest FP project I was aware of was Twitter using Scala and they ended up completely backing away from it. Yikes. T…

Scala isn't a good language for FP at all.

http://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Functional-Programming-in-Sc...

Re: How to Sell Excellence

#28

Post by rdtsc »

solomatov wrote: post #24
rdtsc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But where are all the successful large scale projects built with Haskell (or Clojure or whatever)? How about Erlang. Let's try it, just from the top of my head: * AXD 301 Switch -- Classic. Powers and control phone switch networks of whole countries. Claims 99.9999999% reliability. * Basho Riak -- popular NoSQL database, highly scalable nodes are peers * RabbitMQ -- popular message queue used by enterprises * Whats…

> How about Erlang. Let's try it, just from the top of my head. Erlang isn' purely functional language in the same sense as Haskell is. It's much more mainstream compared to it. Clojure has even less of it. It's basically LISP which is about 60 years old.

Well OP asked about Clojure so Erlang fits the profile.

But you make an interesting point in a way. One can ask, ok here are two non-strictly functional languages that seem to be fairly practical. Used for large distributed mission critical systems.

Would they be better off written in Haskell?

Would they have been written at all if creators only knew about Haskell?

How large is the relationship between fault tolerant and safe systems as a product vs strong compiler type safety in the language it was written.

Re: How to Sell Excellence

#29

Post by cpeterso »

Does the name "Brand X" on slide 29 refer to any specific language? Why add a mysterious third line to the graph when the presentation's primary focus is comparing the other two lines, Haskell and Java?

Re: How to Sell Excellence

#30

Post by stonemetal »

ryandvm wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding inflammatory... I would be willing to believe that purely functional languages are the "one true way" if there were even the slightest bit of empirical evidence to support it. But where are all the successful large scale projects built with Haskell (or Clojure or whatever)? The biggest FP project I was aware of was Twitter using Scala and they ended up completely backing away from it. Yikes. T…

The who uses OCaml page is pretty impressive. https://ocaml.org/learn/companies.html

Looks like it is mostly used for compilers, cryptography, and risk assessment.

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