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What's the use for Bitcoin?

scottyli.com

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Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The costs of bitcoin you describe are systemic costs, not transaction fees. At 0 or 1 trillion transactions, the block rewards would be the same, which means they're not marginal costs, i.e. fees per transaction. They're unrelated. They pertain to money supply, a necessary force to get a currency out into the world. That causes inflation, which is not a direct price people pay (the transaction fees are a direct price…

> Bitpesa exist undercutting remittance Bitpesa takes 3%, significantly more than a credit card transaction, and much more than many established low-risk remittance corridors (e.g. Arabian Peninsula -> India/Pakistan, Europe -> Central America, are all under 1%). True, many remittance flows can be 9% or more, but that's because they have significant levels of fraud, and the overhead of KYC regulation. Ignoring fraud…

> Bitpesa takes 3%

Here's an example of remitting money to Kenya between various services:

http://remittanceprices.worldbank.org/en/corridor/Canada/Ken...

Bitpesa is a Kenyan remittance company after all.

> Coinbase charges 1% to buy, and another 1% to sell

Coinbase costs 1% to process, period. It's cheaper for a merchant than the 3% of a CC, Stripe, Paypal, Square etc.

If you want to look at the consumer side, that's a different story. You tend to conflate things in your arguments. It's not required to buy from Coinbase to spend at a Coinbase merchant. I've been paid in bitcoin at 0% fees, and I've bought bitcoin at Circle at 0% fees.

> About 0% of Microsoft's revenues are in Bitcoin, this increases Microsoft profits by about 0%. Accepting Bitcoin is a marketing expense, not about increasing profits.

Stupid. First of all, quote my entire sentence. Secondly, it's easy to show you a ton of examples that were once small, but became significant. The internet was 0% of revenue for many companies once, where it's now extremely significant. It's not an argument to say something is small, therefore lacking any potential to be or become meaningful. One of its core characteristics is that it's cheaper. If you can cut costs as a merchant by 3% by using Bitpay (0% Saas) versus say Stripe (3% ish), that's massive when you have 3% profit margins like most supermarkets, airlines, a lot of retail etc. You can double profits on any sale. Does that mean bitcoin is a massive game changer today? Of course not, but again to ridicule it is as silly as to say the Internet is shit in 1995 because barely any calls, mail, ecommerce, education etc ran on it. Fact is, any sale Microsoft makes with Bitcoin is more profitable than otherwise, and that's not an insignificant fact despite the small scale of bitcoin sales.

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#152
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All it takes for Bitcoin to be worthless is the belief that Bitcoin is worthless. But that's true for almost any modern currency. If everyone believed that the US dollar is worthless it would become near worthless. There will always be some demand because US citizens have to pay their taxes in US dollars but that wouldn't be enough to keep the dollar at anywhere near it's current value.

Not at all. The US dollar has the economic and military might of the world's most powerful country behind it. What exactly does bitcoin have behind it again?

This is silly. He says that IF the belief the dollar will be worthless is ubiquitous, then it will become worthless. That's a function of the market, a true fact.

The economic power and military are already calculated into that. It makes it very unlikely that people will think the US dollar will become worthless. But he wasn't talking about whether that belief is likely, but simply stating the true fact that IF everyone starts believing that, then demand crashes and supply skyrockets accordingly and it'll become worthless.

In other words, no different from any currency or any good on the market for that matter, including bitcoin.

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its decentralized nature, alone, is its most important attribute. Bitcoin cannot be stopped. Period. It's just as decentralized as tulip bulbs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania ), and Bitcoin will be "stopped" when a) it is illegal to transmit or receive a blockchain (unlikely), or b) when people realize the only value Bitcoin has is in the belief that Bitcoin has value. All it takes for Bitcoin to be wort…

> All it takes for Bitcoin to be worthless is the belief that Bitcoin is worthless. Isn't this true for every currency that isn't literally a physically scarce and useful resource (gold, grain, uranium, gold-pressed latinum?)

Its also true for every currency that is a physically scarce and useful resource, though being such a resource (or, alternatively, being designated legal tender and demanded for tax and other payments by a large and significant government) substantially reduces the probability that belief that the currency is worthless will become widespread.

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#154
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You describe the Western Union of bitcoin. The game changer will be the Nasdaq of bitcoin. The frictionless issuance of stocks bonds and dividends will change everything. Operating agreements will be codified in software and organizations can operate entirely transparently with a degree of accountability never before seen. Why would this be cool? Communities can come together and finance join ventures that were previ…

I don't see how Bitcoin enables any of this - you use the term "frictionless" but the truth is BTC is simply low friction. There is already very little friction in the transaction of stocks, bonds and dividends - HFT platforms process trillions of transactions per day with much less friction than BTC (the current iteration of the blockchain will never scale to that volume). Operating agreements are already codified i…

Yes I mean low friction.

I think we're largely talking about different markets, see my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9313044

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Operating agreements will be codified in software and organizations can operate entirely transparently with a degree of accountability never before seen. Are there any articles or papers which explain why Bitcoin is better than alternative implementations of transparent accounting? E.g. existing access control can be used to make accounts available to any subset (all the way up to public) of interested parties. Tec…

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawi... I think the main advantage to a blockchain solution is the cryptographic verifiability. Not only is the accounting accurate, but the funds cannot be forged or hidden. Also the rules for managing funds can be programmatically encoded using a series of technologies such as multi-sig keys, pay-to-script-hashes, and HD Keys.

Thanks for the explanation and wallet pointer.

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#156
Surely people here are not so short sited that they actually think these 'not useful' cases are really not useful or that these are the only use cases.

Right now you could travel around Thailand and bring only your phone and passport. There is a service that allows you to give btc and get a code that can be used at any ATM of a major bank and get cash. You can cut down the 8% spread of changing money at the airport to 1/3rd of that at least. That is something you can do right this second.

Not only that but paying for something online is fantastic. No excessive information, no transactions cancelled because of a companies' opaque fraud protection system, no chance of your card number being stolen, no need to generate a temporary card number, no need to worry about your bank's opaque fraud protection...

Seriously, if you think bitcoin isn't useful, try using it.

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#157
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You describe the Western Union of bitcoin. The game changer will be the Nasdaq of bitcoin. The frictionless issuance of stocks bonds and dividends will change everything. Operating agreements will be codified in software and organizations can operate entirely transparently with a degree of accountability never before seen. Why would this be cool? Communities can come together and finance join ventures that were previ…

I don't see how Bitcoin enables any of this - you use the term "frictionless" but the truth is BTC is simply low friction. There is already very little friction in the transaction of stocks, bonds and dividends - HFT platforms process trillions of transactions per day with much less friction than BTC (the current iteration of the blockchain will never scale to that volume). Operating agreements are already codified i…

Very low friction? Can you buy a stock in the next 10 minutes and get a dividend payout daily? You can't even buy middle man claim to a stock without signing up for an account over multiple days. To fund it? 4 days for checks to clear. To deposit your dividends...

This doesn't even go in to the implications of stocks not being able to be sold in a fractional reserve style, taking out all the middle men etc.

The financial services industry is 8% of the entire GDP of the US. That is close to 8% we could get back since there is very little that can't be hugely automated.

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitpesa exist undercutting remittance Bitpesa takes 3%, significantly more than a credit card transaction, and much more than many established low-risk remittance corridors (e.g. Arabian Peninsula -> India/Pakistan, Europe -> Central America, are all under 1%). True, many remittance flows can be 9% or more, but that's because they have significant levels of fraud, and the overhead of KYC regulation. Ignoring fraud…

> Bitpesa takes 3% Here's an example of remitting money to Kenya between various services: http://remittanceprices.worldbank.org/en/corridor/Canada/Ken... Bitpesa is a Kenyan remittance company after all. > Coinbase charges 1% to buy, and another 1% to sell Coinbase costs 1% to process, period. It's cheaper for a merchant than the 3% of a CC, Stripe, Paypal, Square etc. If you want to look at the consumer side, that'…

Microsoft does not accept Bitcoin -- BitPay accepts bitcoin and Microsoft accepts dollars.

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#159
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You describe the Western Union of bitcoin. The game changer will be the Nasdaq of bitcoin. The frictionless issuance of stocks bonds and dividends will change everything. Operating agreements will be codified in software and organizations can operate entirely transparently with a degree of accountability never before seen. Why would this be cool? Communities can come together and finance join ventures that were previ…

I think that you could be right about this particular vision of Bitcoin as a financial platform. It's my belief that the future of Bitcoin will be analogous to something like Linux; a great deal of financial infrastructure will rely on blockchain technology, but Bitcoin itself will have little visibility or use to the average consumer outside of a small, dedicated circle of enthusiasts.

If you take into account the fact that Android runs on Linux you could be right.

Re: What's the use for Bitcoin?

#160
post #31
post #17

Bitcoin has many benefits for the average man, provided it is in wide use. Currently it isn't, so the advantages are not yet substantive. For one thing, the government doesn't control the inflation of bitcoin like it does with dollars. The fed aims for ~2.5-3% "inflation" every year, however this is inflation beyond the massive deflation that occurs year over year due to technology and efficiency increases... The sup…

"the government doesn't control the inflation of bitcoin like it does with dollars"-- This is exactly the thing about Bitcoin that concerns me most; it has economic implications baked into its design and operation, but We, the People, have no voice in deciding those implications. What if We, the People, want to change the inflationary/deflationary properties of the money? If we're on bitcoin, someone else made that c…

You do realize that anyone can create their own crypto-currency correct? Right now you can't really choose what currency to use. When you can, you can choose an inflationary currency. Most people I would think will not.
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