Tesla is a Battery Company • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#131

Post by waterfowl » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 2:41 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #119

vonklaus wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The battery in a Tesla Model S, OTOH, is continuously computing whether to charge or discharge Is it? I would imagine the software does that. The battery really is a large array of commodity batteries made by panosonic. Tesla is doing the gigafactory for vertical integration and to bolster it's own supply. Obviously, they have done a lot of innovation around the pack in terms of heat distribution and cell construct…

> I would imagine the software does that. Obviously the lithium-ion cells themselves aren't doing the computation; software is. But the software should be considered part of the "battery" as a system. Without the software the lithium-ion cells are useless for this application, and indeed for any application more dynamic than a flashlight. So the software development that Tesla has done is essential for making batteri…

would "realtime battery management software company" be a better fit?

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#132

Post by jagtesh » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 2:54 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #129

jagtesh wrote: post #128

Just like how Apple is a chip fabrication company? I don't think so. Tesla was the first company to introduce OTA updates, something unheard of in the car industry. So to call them a battery company sounds very patronizing to me.

Except Apple is successful and Tesla is not. When articles like these come out for a company bleeding money its something to worry about. I think its obvious the lithium-ion just doesn't have the lifespan and density to replace cars. At least when gas is under $6 a gallon. After 4-5 years the resale value of that $30k battery pack is non-existant as its begining to fail. We're seeing this a lot with hybrid sales wher…

Do they have to be profitable? Yes. Will they move to manufacturing hybrids? Probably. But they're definitely not a battery company. At least not yet.

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#133

Post by kdawn » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

yogurt wrote: post #116

Tesla is no more a battery company than Amazon is a shipping company.

Every company needs a platform to attack other markets and industries from. Build fast and break into other accessible applications of your product or service.

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#134

Post by mikeash » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 3:17 PM UTC

TorKlingberg wrote: post #97

DenisM wrote: post #18

Musk has previously said in an interview that Li-Ion batteries were at $600 / kwh, but when he looked at the component and manufacturing costs they were at $100 / kwh. Somehow the entire supply chain has piked up a lot of overhead, and he realized it would be possible to reduce that. At those prices, Model-S battery pack costs are between $36k and $51k! When I realized that, I came to conclusion that Tesla Motors cou…

You use "Gigafactory" as if it was an established word. It isn't. It it the name of Tesla's battery factory being built in Nevada.

It's so named because its planned capacity is measured in gigawatt-hours of batteries per year. "A gigafactory" to refer to any factory of that size is a reasonable term to use.

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#135

Post by mikeash » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 3:20 PM UTC

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #23

I don't get this article. The battery in a Tesla Model S is literally a huge array of Panasonic flashlight batteries. It is an off-the-shelf catalog item you can order from Panasonic. Admittedly, you should probably have prior arrangements before ordering millions. The central insight of the Tesla founders was that people really will pay $85000 for an electric car. The other auto makers didn't believe that.

The cells used in Tesla's battery pack are a standard form factor, but they are not standard off-the-shelf parts. If you read up on the battery pack you'll find that it uses 18650 cells, and you'll find that you can buy commodity 18650 cells from all sorts of places. But 18650 is just the shape, not the contents. Tesla's 18650s do come from Panasonic, but they're not off-the-shelf items. They have a custom chemistry and they also don't include the standard battery protection circuits found in almost all such batteries (because Tesla provides that circuitry externally).

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#136

Post by josefresco » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 3:25 PM UTC

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #43

rail2rail wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Similarly Google is just a bunch of commodity off-the-shelf hard drives.

If some talking head wrote a blog called "Google is a hard drive company" that would be a worthy retort.

Joking aside, one could probably write that article and make a good case based on the same logic.

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#137

Post by hnnewguy » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 3:26 PM UTC

jeremyrwelch wrote: post #25

happertiger wrote: post #11

If Tesla executes, they are going to be the leading company in a number of industries, of which battery technology and manufacturing is one of them. They are also leaders in direct sales, JIT manufacturing, motor design, any one of which is a disruptive innovation channel they could monetize, all in the service of building electric cars. Tesla is an energy company, a battery company, a car company, etc, just as GE or…

My point with this post is that their business hinges on Battery production and tech more than any other component, and thus the lead they've created in this space matters more than any of their other innovations. But you're right, their execution on multiple fronts is truly unreal.

>thus the lead they've created in this space matters more than any of their other innovations

What lead do they have in battery production? Currently, they purchase all cells from Panasonic, if I'm not mistaken. Sure, the Gigafactory is going to be...big. But it's far from finished (and there's speculation that construction is on hold). Meanwhile, it's not like all the other large-scale battery producing conglomerates are just sitting around; they are also expanding production.

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#138

Post by lotsofmangos » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 3:29 PM UTC

rplnt wrote: post #91

davedx wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sell cars in multiple countries. For example, here in the Netherlands, Tesla has a pretty big presence for the size of the company. I frequently see Model S's on the roads here.

I'm not sure that qualifies as multi-national. I'd say you have to own R&D in multiple countries, not just sell there (through someone probably). But I see your point.

They are going to be building a UK R&D center apparently, so they are on their way. http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/news/1306223/electric-cars-...

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#139

Post by hnnewguy » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 3:30 PM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #65

happertiger wrote: post #11

If Tesla executes, they are going to be the leading company in a number of industries, of which battery technology and manufacturing is one of them. They are also leaders in direct sales, JIT manufacturing, motor design, any one of which is a disruptive innovation channel they could monetize, all in the service of building electric cars. Tesla is an energy company, a battery company, a car company, etc, just as GE or…

Don't forget the "car charging" business. Tesla announced before that it's willing to license its Supercharger network to other car makers. That business could one day replace most petrol charging stations.

>That business could one day replace most petrol charging stations.

Why wouldn't gas stations merely re-equip with electric charging equipment? They already have the best real estate.

There are also competing standards for DC charging, so I find it highly unlikely that the other manufacturers will license anything from Tesla, rather than settling on another standard.

Re: Tesla is a Battery Company

#140

Post by lotsofmangos » Thu, Apr 02, 2015, 3:37 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #18

Musk has previously said in an interview that Li-Ion batteries were at $600 / kwh, but when he looked at the component and manufacturing costs they were at $100 / kwh. Somehow the entire supply chain has piked up a lot of overhead, and he realized it would be possible to reduce that. At those prices, Model-S battery pack costs are between $36k and $51k! When I realized that, I came to conclusion that Tesla Motors cou…

Global industry decisions are a lot to do with ego as well as necessity.

Once one person has a battery factory the same size as all the other battery factories in the world combined, pretty soon someone else will try and double it. I fully expect China to announce the construction of a new lithium battery plant larger than Elon's, shortly after it starts production.

edit, just noticed mstachowiak's comment about BYD's new factory being built. As a side note, lithium mining is going to get interesting - http://investorintel.com/technology-intel/china-may-making-l...