Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think • Hacker News Board

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#141

Post by metaphorm » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:32 PM UTC

nap wrote: post #30

ryandrake wrote: post #2

And, it's only going to get worse while [1] 39% of Americans either believe they are already among the top 1% or believe that they one day will be. If your mentality is one of "Don't tax the top because that's me (or will be)", you're going to constantly vote against your own economic self-interest, and continue to support policies that help the real rich get ultra-rich. 1. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/t…

There is an equality in possibilities, not in results. You can't blame anyone because you are bad in investments or can't do business. If you tax people who reach success, why not tax those who was failed? Let's redistribute bankruptcy, depression and suicides.

let me make pragmatic and ethical argument (about the ability of people to afford to pay taxes) that might help add some perspective that seems to be sorely lacking here.

we are morally justified in taxing success BECAUSE it is success. its not because we desire to punish or disincentivize success (and indeed we must take care not to tax it too harshly for this reason), but simply put, success generates surplus and we can tax surplus without causing outsize additional suffering. we are justified in taking from those who have extra because they have extra and can afford it.

on the flipside we are not morally justified in taxing failure BECAUSE it is failure. its not because we desire to reward or incentivize failure (and indeed we must take care not to make it too inconsequential to fail for this reason), but simply put, failure generates hardship and we cannot tax a person experiencing hardship without causing outsize additional suffering. we are justified in not taking from those who have nothing left bcause they have nothing left and cannot afford to have anything more taken from them.

do you understand the ethical dimensions of the argument now? what is most fair from a purely financial or economic point of view is not at all what is most fair from a humanitarian or ethical point of view. pragmatically speaking, we have need to generate revenue for the government and it makes the best sense to seek revenue from where money is plentiful, just because that's where the money actually is. its the same reason why consumer brands try to market to wealthier customers (because they have extra money that they can spend).

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#142

Post by xaetium » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:38 PM UTC

On this topic, I almost always concur with these people: http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/tag/inequality/

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#143

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:40 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #127

The problem isn't wealth. The problem is poverty . There isn't much of a practical difference between 1MM and 10MM or 10MM and 100MM. Or even 10K and 100K. It's not that there isn't any difference, it's just that (ignoring extreme scenarios like having to pay medical bills in the US) the difference is mostly a luxury. But below a certain threshold, it's not a matter of luxury. It's a matter of being able to afford th…

I'd argue that there's a massive difference between 1MM and 10MM USD. The former is not enough to comfortably retire on at age 30 and heading up a household of 4.

The latter is.

That's a massive qualitative difference, IMO.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#144

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:41 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #101

joeclark77 wrote: post #44

Nothing in the article explains why "economic inequality" is a bad thing. Which seems to be a logical pre-requisite to declaring it to be "worse than you think".

It's not necessary. Economic inequality is widely considered a social ill.

The Earth was once widely considered to be flat.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#145

Post by nap » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:44 PM UTC

metaphorm wrote: post #141

nap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an equality in possibilities, not in results. You can't blame anyone because you are bad in investments or can't do business. If you tax people who reach success, why not tax those who was failed? Let's redistribute bankruptcy, depression and suicides.

let me make pragmatic and ethical argument (about the ability of people to afford to pay taxes) that might help add some perspective that seems to be sorely lacking here. we are morally justified in taxing success BECAUSE it is success. its not because we desire to punish or disincentivize success (and indeed we must take care not to tax it too harshly for this reason), but simply put, success generates surplus and w…

Taxing is not morally justified BECAUSE it is a robbery. There is not failure taxing just because there is nothing to get from people who failed.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#146

Post by usefulcat » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

brador wrote: post #24

sp332 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most telling polling result from the 2000 election was from a Time magazine survey that asked people if they are in the top 1 percent of earners. Nineteen percent of Americans say they are in the richest 1 percent and a further 20 percent expect to be someday.

Time magazine readers are not an unbiased sample of America. Not even close.

How do you know the sample was limited to readers of Time?

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#147

Post by metaphorm » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:48 PM UTC

nap wrote: post #145

metaphorm wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let me make pragmatic and ethical argument (about the ability of people to afford to pay taxes) that might help add some perspective that seems to be sorely lacking here. we are morally justified in taxing success BECAUSE it is success. its not because we desire to punish or disincentivize success (and indeed we must take care not to tax it too harshly for this reason), but simply put, success generates surplus and w…

Taxing is not morally justified BECAUSE it is a robbery. There is not failure taxing just because there is nothing to get from people who failed.

you're probably not going to convince a lot of people that taxing is robbery. that's an incredibly extreme point of view that is completely at odds with living in a developed industrial nation.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#148

Post by sirrocco » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:53 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #143

pluma wrote: post #127

The problem isn't wealth. The problem is poverty . There isn't much of a practical difference between 1MM and 10MM or 10MM and 100MM. Or even 10K and 100K. It's not that there isn't any difference, it's just that (ignoring extreme scenarios like having to pay medical bills in the US) the difference is mostly a luxury. But below a certain threshold, it's not a matter of luxury. It's a matter of being able to afford th…

I'd argue that there's a massive difference between 1MM and 10MM USD. The former is not enough to comfortably retire on at age 30 and heading up a household of 4. The latter is. That's a massive qualitative difference, IMO.

That's exactly what he said - it's a matter of luxury. Retiring at 30 is a luxury.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#149

Post by nap » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

metaphorm wrote: post #147

nap wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxing is not morally justified BECAUSE it is a robbery. There is not failure taxing just because there is nothing to get from people who failed.

you're probably not going to convince a lot of people that taxing is robbery. that's an incredibly extreme point of view that is completely at odds with living in a developed industrial nation.

Is property rights completely at odds with living in a developed industrial nation? When you're threatening to force people to give up their property - it's a robbery.

Re: Economic Inequality: It’s Far Worse Than You Think

#150

Post by vasilipupkin » Tue, Mar 31, 2015, 5:17 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #120

vasilipupkin wrote: post #97

At least some inequality is the result of our choices. Meaning, Google's new CFO is going to make 70 mln. But, how many people would like to be CFOs? CFOs work crazy hours and have insane amount of responsibility - many people wouldn't want that tradeoff. So, should we somehow normalize inequality numbers for this phenomenon ?

RNs work crazy hours and have an insane amount of responsibility. Should they make $70 Million?

no, because many more people want to be RNs and enjoy being RNs than CFOs.