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“Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

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Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#351

Post by Cthulhu_ »

JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

It used to be considered common for people to have their own office or personal space (cubicle), but that's gone out the window.

Having to share an office with others is fine too imo - every team can determine their own levels of distraction and noise and whatnot. More than one team in one room is asking for trouble though.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#352

Post by calinet6 »

megablast wrote: post #287
Tiksi wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Extrovert here, former introvert (yeah, it's not fixed). Off topic, but how did you "convert"? Was it a conscious effort or did it just seem to happen? I ask mostly because I had a period of a few years where I felt like I leaned closer to extroversion, but now I'm pretty firmly an introvert, and I'd like to be able to push it back to the other side, but can't quite figure out how exactly to do that. As far as offic…

Probably someone just throwing the words introvert and extrovert around.

Yep! Gotta watch those darn words I learned to juggle for comedic effect. Definitely haven't taken the MBTI assessment multiple times in my life or anything. Or read Jung's books on personality that underpinned them. Nope, just heard those words used once in this article I read and people keep saying I done used them good so I keep doing it.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#353

Post by thearn4 »

option wrote: post #120
fsk wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The offensive part is the people who say that open offices are MORE EFFICIENT than a traditional office. I have a hard time believing that one. Given how high programmer salaries are, the productivity loss due to open offices is almost definitely more than the office space savings. It seems like an introvert/extrovert thing. The introverts would prefer a quiet working space (and they're usually the best workers), but…

Just have some respect for yourself - do not accept job offer if you don't get an office (unless it is a very early stage startup)

1 programmer per office is pretty sparse. We have 3-4 here where I work, and it seems to be a nice equilibrium between privacy and ease of collaboration.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#354

Post by calinet6 »

ryanSrich wrote: post #266
JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

This is why I only work remotely. Too many tech companies are up their own asses with how hip and cool their offices are. I just want to work when I want, how I want, and in an environment of my own choosing. I 100% understand that collaboration needs to take place at certain times and I really do enjoy the collaboration of remote work with other employees. However the "collaboration" that takes place in these types…

What you describe is a systemic lack of leadership.

It stems from a lack of understanding of systems and the way people fit into them and work together toward a genuine goal. This lack of understanding comes from beliefs in individual aptitude and attribution bias, among other things.

It doesn't have to be that way. Deming's system of profound knowledge provides a good start to undermine politics and ineffective work cultures.

What you're seeing is not a problem of office layout or design, is what I'm saying.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#355

Post by calinet6 »

Rapzid wrote: post #334
trhway wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having the top of the cream, Google/FB can allow themselves to have their engineers' performance be half of what these engineers can potentially produce. Too bad for the rest of us as our employers look at Google/FB and say "we want that success too" and make open floor offices too...

It has more to do with their sheer size IMO, not having the "cream". I've worked for ATT, Sprint, and a number of companies that are pretty big but not super big and somehow they function despite the idiocy that goes on. It's a form of "too big to fail" IMHO. There are just too many people to average out the slack and the ship has too much momentum. It's going to keep succeeding baring some huge market shift and/or g…

Wouldn't it be great if that effort was actually focused systematically? Exponential improvement.

Deming knew how to do it, and even outlined that the entire economy would rise because of improved management practices. I very much believe he is correct.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#356

Post by rwmj »

ryanSrich wrote: post #266
JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

This is why I only work remotely. Too many tech companies are up their own asses with how hip and cool their offices are. I just want to work when I want, how I want, and in an environment of my own choosing. I 100% understand that collaboration needs to take place at certain times and I really do enjoy the collaboration of remote work with other employees. However the "collaboration" that takes place in these types…

I work remotely. I'm pretty sure that no company has as cool an office as mine. My office looks out onto a private garden. The office is a new wooden building, climate controlled, reasonably spacious, with my own paintings on the walls, and a desk with two large monitors. When I want to chat with my colleagues, I turn to IRC or fire up a video conference on a dedicated extra screen (the 80 Mbps line to the office is more than enough for a high-quality video conference worldwide).

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#357

Post by calinet6 »

Tiksi wrote: post #244
calinet6 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extrovert here, former introvert (yeah, it's not fixed). I appreciate the defense against what is at the very least a statement of extreme arrogance by the GP. I love a quiet workspace, and I also enjoy an open office plan. There's a need for the advantages of both environments—the ease of collaboration and the focused heads-down time—which is why this is such a difficult discussion to have.

>Extrovert here, former introvert (yeah, it's not fixed). Off topic, but how did you "convert"? Was it a conscious effort or did it just seem to happen? I ask mostly because I had a period of a few years where I felt like I leaned closer to extroversion, but now I'm pretty firmly an introvert, and I'd like to be able to push it back to the other side, but can't quite figure out how exactly to do that. As far as offic…

I did several things, I think. And it does fluctuate.

- College in an extremely social club environment (marching band) - Moved across the country to a new place, forced me to meet new people, change social skill set - Moved from small companies to fast growing larger company, with mostly introverted people around me, I tended to fill out the gaps - Role more focused on personal interactions - New romantic relationship that allows for individualism, fulfillment, so I seek social interaction outside it (previous relationships were less balanced) - Exercise, diet make me feel more positive and social in general

In short, my life has significantly changed since I considered myself an introvert. Most of it I attribute to just growing up and developing as a person. I could also see myself shifting back, depending on my situation. No biggie, both are good, and certainly I still have many introverted qualities.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#358

Post by michaelochurch »

sytelus wrote: post #264
JohnBooty wrote: post #160

I would literally switch jobs (and perhaps careers, if every company was like this) if forced to work in an open office like this. I cannot work that way; I can't focus. I realize that I'm adding nothing constructive to this thread; I don't care. Maybe some manager somewhere will see this and a hundred other anecdotal opinions and think twice about open offices. I am the opposite of a prima donna. I just want to work…

Having spent almost equal amount of time in open office and private office, my own anecdote is that productivity wasn't dramatically better with private offices. In open offices, I just used to put head phones on, listen to non-vocal music and be super focused for many hours. In fact that was much better than private office because others would see you wearing headphone and they don't want to bother you. In private o…

In open offices, I just used to put head phones on, listen to non-vocal music and be super focused for many hours.

Being visible from behind puts stress on you. You may not be aware of it, but it will catch up with you before you're 35. Headphones don't help for that. It's not just the noise that makes open-plan offices so terrible. Booth-style open-plan offices would be a step up, but nearly as expensive as private offices and since this open-plan thing is really about cheapness (and back-door age discrimination, in some cases) that does not sell it.

Teams in open office often go to lunch together, have more personal exchanges and have far more socialization

This has more to do with the people than the office layout. There are open-plan offices with eat-at-desk culture and there are private-office layouts where people eat lunch together and play board games after work. Private offices don't mean that there aren't open spaces when people want them.

In private offices, I often see people catching up on news websites and FB and in fact I even knew a guy who freely admitted that he spent entire days on YouTube.

I spend more time goofing off in open-plan offices, because I have to hide the goofing off. Here's how it works for me. I have a certain amount of goofing off that I need to do per day, just because I'm a curious person (it's not actual "goofing off", it's just not immediately work-related). In a private-office layout, it might be 10 minutes every 2 hours spent checking the news, on HN or Reddit, reading a poetry book on the internets, whatever. In an open-plan layout, it takes 20 minutes to get that 10 minutes of goofing off in, because even though I don't actually need to hide it (I'm senior enough that I could pull the "so fucking what" card, and no one cares anyway because everyone goofs off a little bit) I still feel that social pressure.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#359

Post by calinet6 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #275
sytelus wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having spent almost equal amount of time in open office and private office, my own anecdote is that productivity wasn't dramatically better with private offices. In open offices, I just used to put head phones on, listen to non-vocal music and be super focused for many hours. In fact that was much better than private office because others would see you wearing headphone and they don't want to bother you. In private o…

> When people see their teams working hard around them, they > have little excuse not to follow the suit. > In private offices... ...most people are actually fairly > weak against distractions generated from their own computer I think this is true. When left totally to my own with medium-term or long-term deadlines it's hard to resist the pull of distractions on the web. But that is also fairly easily mitigated with…

It's difficult for people to recognize that open offices exist for a reason, but they absolutely do. They are a systemic solution to communication, collaboration, and motivation problems. All three need different systemic solutions in a private office context, but those solutions would be more forced and less natural.

The open floor plan is also a huge cultural boon for that reason. The types of systems that enable communication, collaboration, and mutual motivation in a closed office are the ones that feel "old" and unnatural and corporate. Despite productivity decreases in day to day heads down work, open office collaboration feels very natural and genuine, and that has greater effects.

Plus, it turns out, most of the work in a company larger than a few dozen people is in that communication and collaboration space; not sitting at a desk typing.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#360

Post by michaelochurch »

JohnBooty wrote: post #275
sytelus wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having spent almost equal amount of time in open office and private office, my own anecdote is that productivity wasn't dramatically better with private offices. In open offices, I just used to put head phones on, listen to non-vocal music and be super focused for many hours. In fact that was much better than private office because others would see you wearing headphone and they don't want to bother you. In private o…

> When people see their teams working hard around them, they > have little excuse not to follow the suit. > In private offices... ...most people are actually fairly > weak against distractions generated from their own computer I think this is true. When left totally to my own with medium-term or long-term deadlines it's hard to resist the pull of distractions on the web. But that is also fairly easily mitigated with…

But that is also fairly easily mitigated with methodologies like Scrum where you are frequently touching base with other team members.

Seriously, FUCK THAT SCRUM SHIT. A daily status meeting isn't that bad, but "you can only work on it if it's in the backlog" and "sprints" and backlog grooming meetings and this brand of aggressive micromanagement that has revived itself in the name of "Agile"... all of that nonsense needs to die in a taint fire.

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