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A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

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Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#81
post #38

I just feel that the whole humanity should speak one common language. Now whether you like it or not that language is going to be English. I just dont understand why do we need multiple languages anymore. If anyone says we need them to preserve the culture, I dont understand that either. My native language is not English, just in case anyone feels I want to force English down your throat.

I agree a common language is beneficial, but choosing English as the one is not without drawbacks.

As someone who speaks both English and a tad of Chinese, I am aware of instances where there are words in either language that can't be easily said in the other.

You'd think with a good enough command of English and logic you could necessarily translate any word of any other language in the universe.

However, I suspect it is not that simple. Some words invoke particular neuronal activity that encodes a particular thought which may be hard to replicate through the usage of a clumsy translation. Thus a difference in language may also be a reflection of a difference in culture and way of thinking.

Since people around the world care about different things, they will use different words more frequently, attach different connotations to them, and even invent new words whose usage you'd find to be isolated to particular geographical regions. So, the selection of a common language is almost like the selection of a particular way of thinking. The notion of cultural uniformity/superiority can rub people the wrong way.

So if there is to be a common language, it would be more considerate if it incorporated features from different languages, rather than be entirely from one language (English), and it should probably be engineered to be somewhat culturally agnostic.

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#82
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a false dilemma. Raising a child bilingual in English and Mandarin, good. Raising a child bilingual in Gaelic and Navajo, not so good.

Another false dilemma. Raise a child bilingual in English and Navajo, nothing bad. Gee, why did you omit _that_ combination?

[deleted]

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#83
post #38

I just feel that the whole humanity should speak one common language. Now whether you like it or not that language is going to be English. I just dont understand why do we need multiple languages anymore. If anyone says we need them to preserve the culture, I dont understand that either. My native language is not English, just in case anyone feels I want to force English down your throat.

I'd rather everyone speak two languages: their local/cultural tongue and an invented language that the world shares and could contribute to, such as Lojban or Esperanto.

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#84
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of these cultures (including their language) were forcefully banned, obliterated by law, lynching, displacement. discriminatory treatment, and the stealing of children. I do not exaggerate. So don't pretend they are dying of natural causes when the knife is still sticking out of their back.

To play the devil's advocate, maybe they deserve to die out. If they would have innovated and conquered first, their language could have lived and ours could be the one on its deathbed. Survival of the fittest, if you will.

The devil has enough advocates. Every time the words "to play the devil's advocate..." cross your brain, just punch yourself in the face instead. Soon the urge will pass.

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#85
post #4

Should a dying language be "saved"? Preserving cultural heritage is all very well, but expending a child's language-acquisitive resources on a language which won't connect them to the rest of contemporary humanity seems far too high a price.

Diglossia and bilingualism is very, very common in the world and probably the norm for humans: large monolingual countries are exceptional. Even in monolingual situations, people invent different registers for different formal situations. There is no reason that different linguistic codes cannot coexist for different functions.

This argument can easily be extended to the other national languages: Preserving a national language like Italian or French is all very well, but English is the language of international communication, science, and technology, and expending a child's language-acquisitive resources on a language which won't connect them to the rest of contemporary humanity seems like too high of a price.

The reason some languages are "dying" is because colonial powers attempted to exterminate those people and their community, through a variety of uses of power. In the article, the colonists exterminated more than 90% of the population and sent the survivors to a concentration camp. Just horrible. There's no reason to pretend that this community's precarious cultural position occurred through ethically neutral events.

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#86
post #4

Should a dying language be "saved"? Preserving cultural heritage is all very well, but expending a child's language-acquisitive resources on a language which won't connect them to the rest of contemporary humanity seems far too high a price.

That's a good point. I think there's a tendency to conflate the idea of "lost knowledge" with "inactive practice" when it comes to dying languages. Record, preserve, archive information about a language, as much as possible, but to say that all languages must remain "alive" means that we're saying that some portion of humanity must expend the time and effort to remain multilingual in languages that they may not recei…

Languages don't "die", they are smothered by a society hostile to the community that speaks them. That may be outright genocide (as in the article), or it may be something as simple as forcing children to go to attend school in a language foreign to them, that offers zero recognition of their mother tongue. The kids may have to learn the content in a foreign language, and they are denied even so much as a hour-a-week class on the literature of their native language.

A system that is intent on eradicating the cultural heritage of a people is not trying simply to do only what is beneficial for the kids. =/

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is predicated on an assumption that I'm not sure has a foundation in science: that a child's "language-acquisitive resources" are finite in some way, or that a child learning a minority language won't "have room" for other subjects because of it. Because many, many children in the world speak one language at home and another at school, I'm not sure there is any foundation for this assumption.

What does have a foundation in science (or reality) is that the teaching of another language means a child won't have room in their daily schedule for other things. There's only so much time in the day. If a child is learning math and science and their main language and other skills for seven hours, sleeps for eight hours, and eats for two hours, that only leaves seven hours in the day to fit in everything else, incl…

What opportunity cost?

Diglossia is very, very common worldwide, and many languages have a different functional distribution. In Morocco, kids may speak Berber at home, Arabic on the street, French in school. In other places, you may learn math and science in an international language and literature in a mother tongue.

Bilingualism is very common worldwide; people being bilingual isn't actually a big problem that you need to use state resources (schools and education policy) to stamp out mother tongues.

And as Joshua Fishman points out, if society isn't supporting minority mother tongues, then it is opposing them.

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#88
post #54

To all the tourists that want to stop people from talking to each other in order to have the vague aesthetic feeling that "the world is diverse" or whatever floats your tourist boat: Why don't you go and do that with your own child? Go on, raise them in a language that will limit their life choices and potential. See how that works for them. Then have them tell us how that went. Oh, sorry, that won't happen so easily…

Well, there was this one guy who singlehandedly revived the Hebrew language by teaching his children to speak it. It worked pretty well for him.

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#89
post #4

Should a dying language be "saved"? Preserving cultural heritage is all very well, but expending a child's language-acquisitive resources on a language which won't connect them to the rest of contemporary humanity seems far too high a price.

There is a particularly human egotism with respect to "saving" things that have outlived their usefulness and purpose, or preserving things that should be changing. If language can be viewed through its evolutionary purpose, these dying languages are simply experiments that did not pan out, and should be allowed to become extinct.

"experiments that did not pan out"?

More than 90% of their community was slaughtered in the Selk’nam Genocide, and the survivors were resettled in a mission camp. This is like saying that Yiddish in Germany in the 20th century was an "experiment that didn't pan out."

There is no need to pretend that what happened to these communities was ethically neutral.

Re: A Loss for Words: Can a Dying Language Be Saved?

#90
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really reasoning, just self-fulfilling prophecy. Hebrew was revived, and I can't see a solid reason why the same could not be done on a smaller scale.

The question isn't can a language be revived, it is should a language be revived. I am of the opinion that it was a mistake to revive Hebrew, as doing so has needlessly introduced language barriers.

As I understand it, there was already a language barrier in Yiddish vs. Judeo-Arabic.
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