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America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

washingtonpost.com

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Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#61

Post by snowwrestler »

tedunangst wrote: post #29
IgorPartola wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress. They are making everyone's quality of life worse through their sheer ignorance. People who do not believe in global warming are even worse. I will literally suffocate in my lifetime because of these imbicils. I suppose in some philosophical sense, no we don't all need to agree, but in a practical sense if we want to survive and thrive as a species…

It's extremely hard for me to imagine how my quality of life would improve if my neighbor started believing in evolution. Perhaps you can provide an example?

You would be less likely to get an antibiotic-resistant infection in the future, because an understanding of evolution is necessary to understand how massive application of antibiotics can lead to more resistant bacteria in the future.

You would be more likely to survive a pandemic in the future because there would be more public support for research into how diseases evolve.

There would be less racial strife because more people would understand that the differences we see in people lie on a continuous genetic spectrum, not broken up in distinct "races."

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#62

Post by allemagne »

reasonish wrote: post #17
elviejo wrote: post #11

When: 43% of americans don't believe in evolution. (1) 53% don't believe in climate change (2) 15% don't think vaccination is safe. Then I don't think you don't hace a problem of obsession with STEM, bit with The lack of It. 1 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolutio... (2) http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/26/poll-53-of-americans-dont-...

I can see the worry with vaccination, as it directly affects everyone, but does everyone necessarily have to agree on the other two issues? Is it a real issue if someone is doing really good things for society, being an excellent person, but happens to disagree with you about evolution or climate change? Science is getting to be its own fundamental religion for many IMHO, who prescribe 'science' as the answer to ever…

Global warming is another issue that affects everyone, so it does matter in the way you described.

>Science is getting to be its own fundamental religion for many IMHO, who prescribe 'science' as the answer to everything

If "not believing in evolution or global warming" isn't a real issue for society, I don't understand how "believing too much in science" can be a real issue. Senators and other powerful politicians deny global warming and evolution to demonstrably negative effects. I haven't seen any evidence that the /r/atheism-style fundamentalism is having any effect on the world besides being pompous and annoying.

I'm also assuming that you're criticizing the vagueness of giving 'science' as an answer to big problems as some internet atheists might be wont to do. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're criticizing.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#63

Post by ExpiredLink »

elviejo wrote: post #11

When: 43% of americans don't believe in evolution. (1) 53% don't believe in climate change (2) 15% don't think vaccination is safe. Then I don't think you don't hace a problem of obsession with STEM, bit with The lack of It. 1 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolutio... (2) http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/26/poll-53-of-americans-dont-...

> When: 43% of americans don't believe in evolution.

I don't "believe in" evolution and I'm not a creationist!

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#64

Post by reasonish »

eanzenberg wrote: post #60
reasonish wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those stats are faulty - the infant mortality rate 2 centuries ago was massive, which dragged the life expectancy down massively. Also, I don't think extending our life past 80 or so is a good idea. Quality of life is far more important than quantity. Define "overcrowded"... First world countries are more crowded than they were 30 years ago, and (IMHO) the quality of life has gone down. And as for your "increase food…

Sure it is.. if me at 40 is like today's 30, and me at 80 is like today's 50, then keep pushing the envelope.

The way people live today is extremely unhealthy. Cooped up in cities like factory farms, eating mass produced "food" and becoming morbidly obese.

The best way to improve your quality of life is not to look to science (Unless you're actually ill), it's to look to nature.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#65

Post by todd_whitehead »

jdefr89 wrote: post #51
todd_whitehead wrote: post #8

This is a very disappointing article. It's a regurgitation of cliches. "Education is about critical thinking and 'self enrichment'; Steve Jobs was a Prophet; Mark Zuckerberg is a Public Hero" -- how much was the author paid by Apple and Facebook, or is this what a "stupid sheep" looks like? The conflation of STEM with "Asian educational systems" is hackneyed; every person who does serious things in STEM knows that it…

You are essentially attacking the person instead of his argument. But, the article never claimed STEM was about memorization. Perhaps you should re-read more carefully.

People like him should be "attacked", if you want to dilute the meaning of "attacked" to include non-violent criticisms of character. If he's going to litter his article with first person pronouns and make it personal, then he's "fair game."

I said the article conflated STEM with "Asian educational systems", which are conflated with memorization. Read:

>But technical chops are just one ingredient needed for innovation and economic success. America overcomes its disadvantage — a less-technically-trained workforce — with other advantages such as creativity, critical thinking and an optimistic outlook. A country like Japan, by contrast, can’t do as much with its well-trained workers because it lacks many of the factors that produce continuous innovation.

>Americans should be careful before they try to mimic Asian educational systems, which are oriented around memorization and test-taking. I went through that kind of system. It has its strengths, but it’s not conducive to thinking, problem solving or creativity.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#66

Post by com2kid »

I'm sick and tired of everyone saying STEM degrees don't value anything but technical understanding.

I'm also tired of posting the same rant all over the place! ;)

TL;DR of my previous HN comment on this is that my CS degree included history, writing, music, painting, philosophy, and many other fields of study, just like a degree with the letters "B.A." in it would.

But on top of that I also had to take science and math, courses which used to be considered part of a proper "liberal arts" degree!

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#67

Post by com2kid »

bediger4000 wrote: post #2

A broad general education helps foster critical thinking and creativity. Indeed. But critical thinking and creativity are the things second least prized in US classrooms, right after outright disobedience. So it's no real wonder that broad, general education has fallen out of favor.

> Indeed. But critical thinking and creativity are the things second least prized in US classrooms, right after outright disobedience.

Really?

I never got downgraded for giving an answer that the teacher disagreed with, rather I was given good marks for being able to clearly present my side of a discussion.

For the classes I took that were subjective, History, English (in regards to literary critiques), etc, it was made quite clear that what was most valued was our ability to made a well reasoned and well thought out argument.

I had teachers who would frequently play devil's advocate and argue against any position a student took up, with the same teacher taking opposite sides of an issue for sequential questions asked.

Highlights of Middle School include debating the supremacy of Roman versus Greek societal structures, studying major world religions past and present, and lots long form essays.

High School and College history classes consisted of "well here is the truth about stuff, yeah it is nasty" and the breaking down of nearly every beloved trope and fetishism of American supremacy.

But that is just my experience going through public school. :) (And of course anecdotes aren't worth much, but I don't think there is any sort of nation wide conspiracy to undermine critical thinking!)

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#68

Post by tedunangst »

snowwrestler wrote: post #61
tedunangst wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely hard for me to imagine how my quality of life would improve if my neighbor started believing in evolution. Perhaps you can provide an example?

You would be less likely to get an antibiotic-resistant infection in the future, because an understanding of evolution is necessary to understand how massive application of antibiotics can lead to more resistant bacteria in the future. You would be more likely to survive a pandemic in the future because there would be more public support for research into how diseases evolve. There would be less racial strife because…

I don't think excessive antibiotic use is exclusive to those who don't believe in evolution, but thanks for at least providing a few concrete examples instead of more hand hand waving.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#69

Post by lewisl9029 »

reasonish wrote: post #49
eanzenberg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First world countries are not overcrowded. Scientific progress (increase food production, improved medicine and care) is the reason you will probably live 30 years longer than if you were born 2 centuries ago.

Those stats are faulty - the infant mortality rate 2 centuries ago was massive, which dragged the life expectancy down massively. Also, I don't think extending our life past 80 or so is a good idea. Quality of life is far more important than quantity. Define "overcrowded"... First world countries are more crowded than they were 30 years ago, and (IMHO) the quality of life has gone down. And as for your "increase food…

And what, exactly, do you attribute the drop in infant mortality rates to, if not scientific/technological progress?

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#70

Post by rrrrrt »

nhebb wrote: post #28

I don't think we need to worry about STEM being over-pushed. STEM degrees are self filtering. Math, engineering, and science are hard, and getting kids interested at science at a young age can motivate them only so far. Many will enroll, and when things get tough, a good portion will transfer to other majors.

Does this "self-filtering" explain why women and minorities are vastly underrepresented in STEM educations?
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