Live data from Hacker News

America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

washingtonpost.com

51–60 of 96 posts

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#51

This is a very disappointing article. It's a regurgitation of cliches. "Education is about critical thinking and 'self enrichment'; Steve Jobs was a Prophet; Mark Zuckerberg is a Public Hero" -- how much was the author paid by Apple and Facebook, or is this what a "stupid sheep" looks like? The conflation of STEM with "Asian educational systems" is hackneyed; every person who does serious things in STEM knows that it…

You are essentially attacking the person instead of his argument. But, the article never claimed STEM was about memorization. Perhaps you should re-read more carefully.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see the worry with vaccination, as it directly affects everyone, but does everyone necessarily have to agree on the other two issues? Is it a real issue if someone is doing really good things for society, being an excellent person, but happens to disagree with you about evolution or climate change? Science is getting to be its own fundamental religion for many IMHO, who prescribe 'science' as the answer to ever…

Yes. People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress. They are making everyone's quality of life worse through their sheer ignorance. People who do not believe in global warming are even worse. I will literally suffocate in my lifetime because of these imbicils. I suppose in some philosophical sense, no we don't all need to agree, but in a practical sense if we want to survive and thrive as a species…

You're being a little dramatic. "People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress" ... Honestly... The cool thing about science is that whether you think gravity is real or not you will still fall. Progress will always be made in due time..

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#53
post #9
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also don't pay very well. One alternative is make GE a requisite part of any education. Graduating with a liberal arts degree leads to masses of dissatisfied students who pine of the job desirability and pay of STEM workers. in terms of creativity, I'm pretty sure science has lots of creativity. What does 'creativity' even mean? imagination, ability to create things? What have the liberal arts given society wher…

Your preoccupation with paying bills that are already well and effectively paid and economies quite energized seems to obscure to you that a very large part of the purpose of a university is to turn out well-rounded human beings. While I have a CS degree (which in my school was a liberal arts degree), I credit my decision to take as few in-major classes as possible, and spend as much time in the humanities as I could…

I'm not against teaching/requiring GE courses for all graduates. I'm against selling liberal arts as a viable career. There are lots of people out there who studied at a liberal arts university and are unhappy with the occupations they've had to settle for because there is no market for their skills.

From my experience people go to university mainly to make themselves marketable in the broader economy, not so much to come out as well rounded individuals. People who want to be well rounded individuals typically are able to pursue those interests on their own. That's not to say that there might be an occasional student who does want to become a meaningful critical thinker, but for the most part people who go into liberal arts do it because they saw themselves as not up to par in STEM so decided to take a path of least resistance but also gave them some credibility.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To believe in evolution is to contradict their beliefs in God." Once again, no. Stop spreading this tripe. Catholic doctrine for example is quite clear a belief in evolution does not contradict church doctrine. This is the kind of statement that tries to create a conflict where one shouldn't be.

> Catholic doctrine for example is quite clear a belief in evolution does not contradict church doctrine. Of course they are, they have to adapt. Who would go to church if they still insisted that the sun revolves around the earth? Just goes to show that God begins where true knowledge ends.

You are aware the Big Bang and many other scientific principles/theories were brought about by Catholic priests right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

Science and religion are not intrinsically at odds with each other please stop spreading that extreme non-sense

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#55
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress. They are making everyone's quality of life worse through their sheer ignorance. People who do not believe in global warming are even worse. I will literally suffocate in my lifetime because of these imbicils. I suppose in some philosophical sense, no we don't all need to agree, but in a practical sense if we want to survive and thrive as a species…

You're being a little dramatic. "People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress" ... Honestly... The cool thing about science is that whether you think gravity is real or not you will still fall. Progress will always be made in due time..

> in due time

While the rest of the world leaps forward perhaps?

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#56
post #28

I don't think we need to worry about STEM being over-pushed. STEM degrees are self filtering. Math, engineering, and science are hard, and getting kids interested at science at a young age can motivate them only so far. Many will enroll, and when things get tough, a good portion will transfer to other majors.

Agreed.. If you don't really love it you will not be able to pursue a career in it. It simply wouldn't be worth your time. I am in CS regardless if its needed or not.. Its simply what I like.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#57
post #10

I resent the seemingly common belief that STEM and creativity are so disjoint. Every breakthrough in STEM required incredible amounts of creativity. Even average STEM workers (say, for example, a software developer) usually need to exercise creativity pretty regularly.

I resent the seemingly common belief that STEM and creativity are so disjoint.

They're not, of course, and you explained that well. I do think that there is a problem of (surprising?) STEM anti-intellectualism, especially in industry. Some programmers are literate in history, the arts, and philosophy. Some are not. The latter category seems to get our industry in so much trouble; if they understood aesthetics, they wouldn't be so dismissive of languages that aren't Java, and if they understood human nature (through history and philosophy and literature) they'd have a better understanding of why "Agile" is dishonestly-sold bullshit. My 10x aesthetic sense isn't something I was born with; it comes from being exposed to a large number of seemingly unrelated topics.

At heart, I'm a liberal arts guy. I went to a small liberal arts college (Carleton) when I had several big-name schools in the bag (e.g. a contact at Princeton) because, when I was 17, I wanted to be a writer. I was more passionate about poetry than the sciences, at the time. I majored in math, though, and was able to transition into software. I definitely think that a broad-based, liberal education is important.

All of that said, a quality liberal-arts education includes math and the sciences. After all, two of the original seven liberal arts were mathematical, a third was astronomy and a fourth was music.

There are narrow scientists and programmers, of course, and that's part of why we encounter so much nonsense in our industry, but there are narrow history and English literature people (even at high levels) as well and they're just as bad. Scientific literacy is important, and the creativity comes from exposure to a large number of fields. Like you, I reject the idea that some fields (e.g. the humanities) are more creative than others (e.g. the sciences). However, I think that people who simply refuse to learn a subject, whether it's history or the sciences, generally aren't very creative.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress. They are making everyone's quality of life worse through their sheer ignorance. People who do not believe in global warming are even worse. I will literally suffocate in my lifetime because of these imbicils. I suppose in some philosophical sense, no we don't all need to agree, but in a practical sense if we want to survive and thrive as a species…

You're probably going to die from cancer or heart disease. Even if you just look at environmental factors, we're more likely to die either from the bee population dying due to pesticides, or because of the massive increase in routine use of antibiotics in meat production. Neither of which really get much media attention, maybe because they're both issues caused by science, and people like cheap food. But at the end o…

> because of the massive increase in routine use of antibiotics in meat production

Which is dangerous because it leads bacteria to evolve away from the antibiotics, becoming harder to stop in humans. Antibiotic resistance is one of the issues hurt by the poor understanding of evolution.

Anyway, the general problem is that people don't have an understanding of science in general necessary to understand issues on which the government must make public policy. It's like trying to drive a car somewhere without knowing how to read street signs or a map.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#59
A part of this obsession has to do with the fact that STEM subjects are easily measurable and tested for. Our "enlightened-meritocratic" society is obsessed with who deserves money and who doesn't. It will obviously value a math test that makes it easy to judge ability, than a philosophy essay which may improve a child's critical thinking but is a lot harder to judge.

That gets compounded with the fact that colleges are now practically vocational schools which themselves tout a "return-on-investment" as their salient feature.

The solution is quite simple: expand humanities requirements and make them stringent. Make a student take at least 1/3 of courses in non-STEM subjects.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First world countries are not overcrowded. Scientific progress (increase food production, improved medicine and care) is the reason you will probably live 30 years longer than if you were born 2 centuries ago.

Those stats are faulty - the infant mortality rate 2 centuries ago was massive, which dragged the life expectancy down massively. Also, I don't think extending our life past 80 or so is a good idea. Quality of life is far more important than quantity. Define "overcrowded"... First world countries are more crowded than they were 30 years ago, and (IMHO) the quality of life has gone down. And as for your "increase food…

Sure it is.. if me at 40 is like today's 30, and me at 80 is like today's 50, then keep pushing the envelope.
Post reply on HN