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America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

washingtonpost.com

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Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#41

Post by eanzenberg »

tedunangst wrote: post #29
IgorPartola wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress. They are making everyone's quality of life worse through their sheer ignorance. People who do not believe in global warming are even worse. I will literally suffocate in my lifetime because of these imbicils. I suppose in some philosophical sense, no we don't all need to agree, but in a practical sense if we want to survive and thrive as a species…

It's extremely hard for me to imagine how my quality of life would improve if my neighbor started believing in evolution. Perhaps you can provide an example?

Sure: People who don't believe in evolution can taint those around them especially the young, which could cause those to not pursue scientific careers, setting back further progress in those fields and pushing forward the next discoveries in fields like cancer, life-lengthening, and other diseases. These "potential setbacks of breakthroughs" hurts society's quality of life.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#42

Post by [deleted] »

tedunangst wrote: post #29
IgorPartola wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress. They are making everyone's quality of life worse through their sheer ignorance. People who do not believe in global warming are even worse. I will literally suffocate in my lifetime because of these imbicils. I suppose in some philosophical sense, no we don't all need to agree, but in a practical sense if we want to survive and thrive as a species…

It's extremely hard for me to imagine how my quality of life would improve if my neighbor started believing in evolution. Perhaps you can provide an example?

[deleted]

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#43

Post by pconner »

Smoofer wrote: post #35
subsection1h wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, I'm also bothered by the common argument that participation in sports is vital for learning to work as part of a team, as if STEM projects don't facilitate gaining such experience.

Eh, in a high school setting, there's no better way to learn teamwork than being on a sports team, imo.

There are other "teams" you could be on: drama departments, school bands, etc.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#45

Post by eanzenberg »

reasonish wrote: post #34
IgorPartola wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People who do not believe in evolution are holding back progress. They are making everyone's quality of life worse through their sheer ignorance. People who do not believe in global warming are even worse. I will literally suffocate in my lifetime because of these imbicils. I suppose in some philosophical sense, no we don't all need to agree, but in a practical sense if we want to survive and thrive as a species…

You're probably going to die from cancer or heart disease. Even if you just look at environmental factors, we're more likely to die either from the bee population dying due to pesticides, or because of the massive increase in routine use of antibiotics in meat production. Neither of which really get much media attention, maybe because they're both issues caused by science, and people like cheap food. But at the end o…

First world countries are not overcrowded. Scientific progress (increase food production, improved medicine and care) is the reason you will probably live 30 years longer than if you were born 2 centuries ago.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#46

Post by acadien »

psychometry wrote: post #39
pconner wrote: post #10

I resent the seemingly common belief that STEM and creativity are so disjoint. Every breakthrough in STEM required incredible amounts of creativity. Even average STEM workers (say, for example, a software developer) usually need to exercise creativity pretty regularly.

You clearly didn't read the article. The success the U.S. has had in being innovating in STEM fields is due to our cultural tradition of comprehensive education rooted in the liberal arts. A focus only on STEM is what gets you modern-day China, Korea, and Japan, where there are many technically skilled workers but a lower inclination to be innovative.

>The success the U.S. has had in being innovating in STEM fields is due to our cultural tradition of comprehensive education rooted in the liberal arts.

There is no evidence for this.

>A focus only on STEM is what gets you modern-day China, Korea, and Japan, where there are many technically skilled workers but a lower inclination to be innovative.

More stereotyping with no evidence. As someone who was worked with many Chinese, Koreans and Japanese as a scientist this statement is just outright ridiculous. Guess what, many of the top creative scientists in America are educated in the very countries you deride.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#47

Post by _gotmilk »

eutectic wrote: post #38
_gotmilk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen this argument a lot, and it doesn't hold water. Those STEM majors leaving the field often get salaries higher than people who majored in that field going into it. It seems that these employers value the STEM education moreso than people who major in the same field. Second, it is entirely possible that these STEM majors voluntarily left the STEM field. More people are doing STEM but that doesn't mean more…

The burden of proof is on the pro-STEMmers to show that we really do need a bunch more STEM majors, not on the rest of us to prove we don't. Edit: and are you sure that your higher-wages claim (source?) is not just evidence that STEM majors act as an effective filter for the smart and driven.

I originally read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-rosen/the-truth-hurts-th...

Quote: "People in STEM jobs benefit from being in such high demand. Study[1] after study[2] confirms that STEM professionals get paid more than non-STEM professionals -- often much more -- even when you control for their education and other factors. Contrary to Charette's claim that STEM wages have stagnated, reports from Georgetown, the Commerce Department[3], and the Information Technology Innovation Foundation[4] show that they have risen faster than non-STEM wages, even in recent years. That is a sign that employers are feeling the pinch."

The Studies linked: [1] http://www.esa.doc.gov/Reports/stem-good-jobs-now-and-future

[2] https://cew.georgetown.edu/report/stem/

[3]http://www.esa.doc.gov/Reports/stem-good-jobs-now-and-future

[4] http://www.itif.org/publications/real-story-guestworkers-hig...

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#48

Post by robmarkg »

When I was in college decades ago, engineering degrees were still really valuable, but there was also awareness that engineering was not immune to economic cycles - in fact, it was recognized that engineering had a "boom and bust" cycle. That doesn't seem to have been the case in a number of years, but I am wondering if it still might happen.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#49

Post by reasonish »

eanzenberg wrote: post #45
reasonish wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably going to die from cancer or heart disease. Even if you just look at environmental factors, we're more likely to die either from the bee population dying due to pesticides, or because of the massive increase in routine use of antibiotics in meat production. Neither of which really get much media attention, maybe because they're both issues caused by science, and people like cheap food. But at the end o…

First world countries are not overcrowded. Scientific progress (increase food production, improved medicine and care) is the reason you will probably live 30 years longer than if you were born 2 centuries ago.

Those stats are faulty - the infant mortality rate 2 centuries ago was massive, which dragged the life expectancy down massively. Also, I don't think extending our life past 80 or so is a good idea.

Quality of life is far more important than quantity. Define "overcrowded"... First world countries are more crowded than they were 30 years ago, and (IMHO) the quality of life has gone down.

And as for your "increase food production"... We're force feeding chickens to be morbidly obese, pumping them full of anti-biotics so they don't get ill from living in squalid conditions. We're killing off the bee population with pesticides everywhere. These things are not good, and will only get worse as there are more people to feed.

Re: America's obsession with STEM education is dangerous

#50

Post by 10098 »

protomyth wrote: post #18
kiba wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't really about scientific ignorance but as to what tribe(s) you belong to or what authorities you trust. To believe in evolution is to contradict their beliefs in God. Most people on HN didn't reasoned out the chain of evidence that lead to us to believe in evolution, yet they probably believe in the theory of evolution.

"To believe in evolution is to contradict their beliefs in God." Once again, no. Stop spreading this tripe. Catholic doctrine for example is quite clear a belief in evolution does not contradict church doctrine. This is the kind of statement that tries to create a conflict where one shouldn't be.

> Catholic doctrine for example is quite clear a belief in evolution does not contradict church doctrine.

Of course they are, they have to adapt. Who would go to church if they still insisted that the sun revolves around the earth? Just goes to show that God begins where true knowledge ends.

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