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Australia outlaws warrant canaries

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Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#91

Post by shit_parade »

api wrote: post #85
mike_hearn wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who and what are behind the push to remove civil liberties There's no master plan, if that's what you're getting at. I think this general drift is the result of a few different things, most of which are older than we'd like to admit: • A lot of people like authoritarianism • People blame government by default for any problem that doesn't have any more obvious perpetrator (see point 1) • The massive mismatch in mili…

"In case you doubt the appeal of authoritarianism just go look at the popularity of Stalin in Russia, or the readership of the Daily Mail in the UK, or the overwhelming political support for the NSA / the PATRIOT Act. Lots and lots of people want to live in a highly authoritarian society and it's worth reflecting on why that is, and whether those people have valid reasons." This is a really salient point and one that…

The Arab spring was largely crushed with the help of American largesse. We ignored Bahrain, we never stopped funding the Egyptian military and said nothing when they reestablished control.

People are unwilling to oppose government control, and when they are they get crushed by outside forces. People in American continue to work for the government, it's even considered prestigious.

We can't even prosecute torture. People who believe in the government are dangerous idiots.

Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#92

Post by shit_parade »

rsync wrote: post #66

The warrant canary is not a solution to the problem of secret legal actions. It's merely a protest. As we see the warrant canary idea institutionalized - with companies like Apple and Twitter adopting them to a certain degree, and cataloguing them on sites like canary watch[1] we are falling down a rabbit hole of speech about speech (and speech about speech about speech, etc.). The real issue is NSLs and other secret…

Yes, people and companies need to openly defy unjust laws. NSLs should immediately be published upon receipt and litigated against.

Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#93

Post by fit2rule »

rustynails wrote: post #79
fit2rule wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been true of Australia for decades. The corporate elite have been using Australia as a proving-ground for their strategies for a long time now, since Australia is one of those western nations where heinous, fascist behaviour, has been permitted for centuries. The colonial/imperial systems used to rule Australian society - and destroy its previous occupants - have been refined and enhanced for application in…

Most of your other comments are fair about Audtralia. This one is not. Australia has always been apathetic - "she'll be right" was our catch cry. Until recently (the last 20 years or so), we maintained that casual attitude. Since then, we have culturally become Americanised through TV and movies. With it has come a callousness and a higher level of sophistication and a greater sense of entitlement. I would suggest tw…

Your argument amounts to a "look over there!" style distraction, when there are instead many foul and vicious actions to be observed in the contemporary Australian stage which have only been possible as a continuing set of crimes against humanity, precisely because the distraction argument has been made over and over again.

It is time for Australians to fess up to the facts - we cannot continue to say "but, 'they' do it too!' as a justification for the criminal acts that we, as a nation, allow to continue - even today in the 21st century - which have roots in the 19th century and beyond.

Look at what the British imperial government did to the Australian native population - up until the 1970's and even early 80's; racist programs of discrimination and vile hatred were enacted to prevent the Australian people from earning their rightful place in the nation. White Australia has much to answer for: Racial cleansing/genetic engineering of the most heinous forms, even still echoing through the native population today, tearing peoples lives apart and rendering them, quite literally, infertile and barren - as a culture, and as human individuals.

It is essential that contemporary Australian culture rise to the challenge of admitting the heritage of its racist nation, and address the real issue - and, even more vital, attempt to redress the wrongs that are even still today being committed in the name of White Australia. The detention centers - essentially micro-concentration camps - must be closed. We must allow ourselves the dignity of admitting into this great land those who seek sanctity and safety from the wars which our Western Powers have wrought upon the world. We must, as Australians, insist that we be represented by people who will accept the duty of making amends for the criminal acts that Australian generations have performed, in the broader human sphere, in our names. It is essential, because if we do not do something about it now, it will continue - there is much evidence of this in our history, which we must acknowledge or face even worse consequences, as time marches on, and our culture continues to sweep under the rug the heinous nature of our heritage.

Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#95

Post by fit2rule »

masmullin wrote: post #48
blueskin_ wrote: post #4

Australia seems to be leading the world in oppression in a way even the US has yet to manage.

Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

The older I get, the more I realize this fantastic trope is true.

Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#96

Post by api »

shit_parade wrote: post #91
api wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In case you doubt the appeal of authoritarianism just go look at the popularity of Stalin in Russia, or the readership of the Daily Mail in the UK, or the overwhelming political support for the NSA / the PATRIOT Act. Lots and lots of people want to live in a highly authoritarian society and it's worth reflecting on why that is, and whether those people have valid reasons." This is a really salient point and one that…

The Arab spring was largely crushed with the help of American largesse. We ignored Bahrain, we never stopped funding the Egyptian military and said nothing when they reestablished control. People are unwilling to oppose government control, and when they are they get crushed by outside forces. People in American continue to work for the government, it's even considered prestigious. We can't even prosecute torture. Peo…

"People who believe in the government are dangerous idiots."

That might be true, but that's still my point-- it is to some extent democratic. If more people were genuinely and strongly opposed to torture, we'd be getting somewhere prosecuting it. I'd say a majority are weakly opposed and a minority are strongly opposed. If a majority or super-majority were strongly opposed something would be happening.

(Being weakly opposed is basically meaningless.)

In some ways all societies are democracies. A totalitarian society is where the majority either supports the totalitarian regime or at least doesn't dislike it enough to invest the energy and risk required to rebel against it. There's a minimum threshold of support that any regime must have in order to maintain control. At the very least you must have sufficient support among a society's wealthy and powerful (money), those who wield weapons (military and police), and those who control key infrastructure (operations). If those sectors of support fail, kings get deposed.

Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#97

Post by anigbrowl »

steven2012 wrote: post #9

What happened in the last few years to allow our civil rights in the most forward thinking countries to unravel so easily? And why do citizens not care? How is it possible that all countries have elected such a group of corrupt, nearsighted politicians to the point where freedom is an inconvenience over them consolidating practically dictatorial power? And again, why does no one care?

Lots of people do care. However, lots of other people are assholes, and support this sort of behavior. I hestiate to be political, but it's almost universally acknowledged that Australia's Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, is a conservative ideologue (his party is named the Liberal party, but in the economic rather than the social sense; it's broadly center-right) - broadly pro censorship, dislikes immigrants, seems a bit racist towards aboriginals, hostile to expanding women's rights, and famously disbelieves int he idea of man-made climate change and has dismantled Australia's carbon tax. There's a large constituency that supports this sort of thing and who are quite happy to tolerate heavy-handed security measures.

Because a lot of people are assholes, thinking they'll be better off by keeping people of whom they disapprove in an inferior position. I apologize for stating my views so crudely, but I think it's politically naive to assume that other people don't care because they don't understand or haven't thought through the long-term consequences. In many cases, they understand just fine,; they don't care because they are selfish and want others to be forced into compliance with their views by the power of the state.

Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#98

Post by [deleted] »

steven2012 wrote: post #9

What happened in the last few years to allow our civil rights in the most forward thinking countries to unravel so easily? And why do citizens not care? How is it possible that all countries have elected such a group of corrupt, nearsighted politicians to the point where freedom is an inconvenience over them consolidating practically dictatorial power? And again, why does no one care?

[deleted]

Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#99

Post by xnull6guest »

steven2012 wrote: post #9

What happened in the last few years to allow our civil rights in the most forward thinking countries to unravel so easily? And why do citizens not care? How is it possible that all countries have elected such a group of corrupt, nearsighted politicians to the point where freedom is an inconvenience over them consolidating practically dictatorial power? And again, why does no one care?

The old world order is being seriously challenged and the old elite countries can't keep their ideals and their place at the same time. The citizens of course, demand both of their leaders. The leaders are trying to sacrifice liberties in the most subtle and strategic of ways, and the minimal amount possible. But globalized media, (white) propaganda, and availability of information makes this fairly transparent.

Citizens do care - this is a sentiment I hear a lot from a lot of people.

The politicians are sometimes nearsighted but are also more often than we think imbued with some sense of long term tradeoff.

Re: Australia outlaws warrant canaries

#100

Post by anigbrowl »

vijayr wrote: post #60
steven2012 wrote: post #9

What happened in the last few years to allow our civil rights in the most forward thinking countries to unravel so easily? And why do citizens not care? How is it possible that all countries have elected such a group of corrupt, nearsighted politicians to the point where freedom is an inconvenience over them consolidating practically dictatorial power? And again, why does no one care?

It is happening at a pace that doesn't force people to think about it. If something big and bad happens suddenly, then people are forced to notice. But if the same big and bad thing happens slowly, one step at a time, most people don't notice. And those who notice are aren't able to do much as they are in a minority. Also, many people are more idealistic in their youth - before they have families, careers etc and bef…

You're assuming that if everyone did notice, they would just naturally agree with you, but too many of them are 'sheeple' - lured into passivity by entertainment, economic conditions and so on.

I'm sorry, but this is a delusion on the part of many people on the left - the idea that people act against their interests because they just don't understand, and if only they could be brought to see the truth, they'd vote/protest/whatever. The reality is that many people understand the left position just fine, they just don't agree with it. There is a large contingent of people (maybe 30% in the US; hard to gauge in other countries, but you have surely noticed the rise o reactionary political parties in many countries in recent years) who are entirely comfortable with the proposition that people of other races and social classes are inferior and should be institutionally discriminated against, who do not believe in the rehabilitation of criminals, who think pillage is a superior policy to stewardship, and who generally have a completely zero-sum outlook on life.

In some cases they simply believe the strong are entitled to subjugate the weak, and that if we run out of resources in home countries that sooner or later (their notion of) common sense will prevail and the world will return to a colonial model with the strong nations just taking over the territories of weaker ones and putting the people there back in their place. In some cases, they're religiously motivated, believing that the world was ordered a certain way by their God and that they should thus be in charge of things, and/or they consider the world itself a transient distraction from some greater spiritual truth, so any signs of long-term unsustainability are treated as validation of apocalyptic views. This is why very conservative Christians in the US are intensely interested in the Middle East, for example; for them it's not just another geopolitical theater with a complex strategic and resource calculus, but the site of Armaggeddon, the final battle between good and evil.

For example, the rise of the 'Islamic State' over the last year was greeted with considerable enthusiasm in US conservative circles - not approval, but very enthusiastic disapproval - because it seemed like the emergence of a clear ideological opponent who fits in neatly with western eschatology, and the extremist positions of the Islamic State itself evidence a similarly ideological consciousness.

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