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Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

economist.com

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Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#71

Post by bsder »

mturmon wrote: post #51
DannoHung wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the Common Core standard is fine, but whoever is coming up with the actual problem sets for the Common Core seems to be an actual crazy person.

I have to agree. My kid's fourth grade class (Common Core, California; adopted a NY State based text) has been going over multiplication of two and three digit numbers in three different ways for over a month now. I like math, and I can see what they're trying to do (build intuition in a multi-faceted way & justifying different multiplication algorithms) but the way it is done is boring her to death. It is too much r…

The problem here isn't Common Core, it's "mainstreaming".

The issue is that the good students will always learn quickly and be bored while the average student is learning.

The only solution would be to skip her ahead a year in math.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#72

Post by vacri »

dollaaron wrote: post #57
vacri wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, here's the crazy thing. Back-of-the-envelope, but it gives a picture. Harvard has 20,000 students, give or take. Plucking a number from the air, let's say that one year of study is $50,000. Across 20,000 students, that's $1B in tuition fees. Harvard's endownment is $36B. For less than 3% of their endowment, they could give 'free education'. Obviously the whole picture is a little more complex, but it does add som…

Harvard and Princeton both offer no-loan financial aid. http://admission.princeton.edu/financialaid

Interesting. I imagine there's some devil in the details, but taking it on faith, 60% of the students there get no debt. Thanks for the info.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#73

Post by dollaaron »

vacri wrote: post #72
dollaaron wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harvard and Princeton both offer no-loan financial aid. http://admission.princeton.edu/financialaid

Interesting. I imagine there's some devil in the details, but taking it on faith, 60% of the students there get no debt. Thanks for the info.

As a student at Princeton, I know I'd never have been able to attend if it were not for their extremely generous financial aid. Princeton's aid package lowered the total cost to well below the other schools I applied to (mostly New Jersey state schools).

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#74

Post by cheald »

sprusr wrote: post #32
dreamdu5t wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I s…

I'm a high school student in the UK in the process of applying to university courses beginning September this year. I haven't really put much thought into why I'm applying to universities as opposed to doing something else. It just seems like the done thing. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to programming and software design, but if I were to be thrust into a working environment right now I'm sure…

> My thought has always been that these kinds of 'working' skills are what you get at university, but really I have no idea.

You will not. You will acquire those working skills in the course of the profession. A degree program may expand your academic knowledge of computer science, and attendance at a university will provide networking opportunities where you will meet people and be exposed to new ideas, but it will not teach you to be a tradesman.

If you want to be a trademan (specifically, a programmer), you need to start working in that trade - find a job as a junior programmer. You'll learn more relevant to your desired career there than you possibly could at university.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#75

Post by cafebeen »

thuuuomas wrote: post #15
wahlis wrote: post #7

Perhaps your assumptions are wrong? Not everything should be measured against a monetary value standard.

The measure is implicit when said thing is assigned a cost!

Is that still true if you can't resell said thing? I think the value of school also depends on how well the person takes advantage of opportunities and resources.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#76

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

guyzero wrote: post #49
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one opinion. Please get counter-opinions for balance. IMO only mugs and rich kids go to university in the UK now. I doubt you'll get working skills at uni. Depending on the course, you're more likely to get mind-broadening introductions to CS ideas and techniques you're not yet familiar with - hard stuff about algorithms, difficult languages you wouldn't usually touch, and the like. But you don't get actual w…

There is no GitHub or StackOverflow for mechanical engineering, civil engineering, high-voltage electrical engineering, biotech lab work, etc. Would you hire an accountant for your business who was just enthusiastic and good with Google? You know there are other degree programs other than CS at most universities right?

It's true those all have better reward profiles than CS. But I'd still consider an apprenticeship instead of a degree for civils and mech eng.

>Would you hire an accountant for your business who was just enthusiastic and good with Google?

Oddly enough I taught myself basic biz accounting using enthusiasm and Google. The wheels haven't come off yet, so it may not have been a total failure.

Bio lab work you can do from school. Bio innovation is a whole other thing and you'd certainly need a good degree for that, if not a PhD.

But OP specifically mentioned computing and showed no interest in civils, elect eng, bio, etc. So snarky comments about not knowing that other options are possible are perhaps misplaced.

Also, I remain unconvinced by the quality of much degree-level education in the UK. The mid-lower market seems more about getting bums on seats, and high value degrees are not so easy to find. With so much competition from (rich) fee-paying foreign students they're even harder to get onto.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#77

Post by avn2109 »

vacri wrote: post #47
mblevin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually the most insidious misperception that a wide swath of people appear to have about American education. It's not that the government spends too LITTLE money - it's because it spends too MUCH without any in the form of cheap student loans with no risk based pricing. Any 18 year old with no credit history can go and and take out over a $200k of student loans ($57,500 / year) from the government, without…

So, here's the crazy thing. Back-of-the-envelope, but it gives a picture. Harvard has 20,000 students, give or take. Plucking a number from the air, let's say that one year of study is $50,000. Across 20,000 students, that's $1B in tuition fees. Harvard's endownment is $36B. For less than 3% of their endowment, they could give 'free education'. Obviously the whole picture is a little more complex, but it does add som…

Harvard (and most of its peer institutions) give ~free education to anyone who can get in and comes from the ~middle class.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#78

Post by dropit_sphere »

megaman821 wrote: post #30
dreamdu5t wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I s…

What gives you the impressions that colleges are some sort of job training program? Having experience is much more beneficial for preparing and gaining a job. A degree without the accompanying internship, volunteer work, or portfolio is not worth as much to an employer.

>What gives you the impression that colleges are some sort of job training program?

Oh, you know, just my entire upbringing. Job ads asking for a B.S, M.S., or Ph.D. help too.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#80

Post by totony »

guyzero wrote: post #16
Spearchucker wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in an African village of 200, miles from anywhere and anything. I finished school but didn't go to university. Armed with that and my interest in computers I've managed to land jobs at both Microsoft and Nokia. As ever, every example has a counter-example. I don't know which approach is right, but crazy grateful I didn't go through the American system. The cost strikes me as crippling.

In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…

Quick correction, it's ~2000$-2300 per SEMESTER, so ~4000 per year (McGill)
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