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Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

economist.com

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Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#41

Post by rayiner »

nmrm2 wrote: post #37
rayiner wrote: post #25

Too little is known about whether money spent in education is worth it, period. The US spends more on education per capita than almost all OECD countries, but performs worse on international metrics. What's the value proposition?

Is that per capita? The US is also one of the largest OECD countries in terms of population, so if not, it's a pretty meaningless statistic. CS industry in general is a little bit strange because jobs are so plentiful and many of those jobs don't require particularly deep understanding of the core content of the scientific field. The same is not the case for e.g., mechanical engineering or medical professions.

Yes per capita: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#42

Post by guyzero »

mblevin wrote: post #36
guyzero wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…

This is actually the most insidious misperception that a wide swath of people appear to have about American education. It's not that the government spends too LITTLE money - it's because it spends too MUCH without any in the form of cheap student loans with no risk based pricing. Any 18 year old with no credit history can go and and take out over a $200k of student loans ($57,500 / year) from the government, without…

In most other countries universities are effective nationalized and loans are unnecessary because tuition is set by government fiat.

Why loan money tot he student to pay it to the university?

Why not just pay it directly to the school and charge the student some nominal amount? There's academic entrance requirements either way.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#43

Post by gdubs »

nmrm2 wrote: post #37
rayiner wrote: post #25

Too little is known about whether money spent in education is worth it, period. The US spends more on education per capita than almost all OECD countries, but performs worse on international metrics. What's the value proposition?

Is that per capita? The US is also one of the largest OECD countries in terms of population, so if not, it's a pretty meaningless statistic. CS industry in general is a little bit strange because jobs are so plentiful and many of those jobs don't require particularly deep understanding of the core content of the scientific field. The same is not the case for e.g., mechanical engineering or medical professions.

It looks like the US is right near the top in terms of spending. A more meaningful question might be, how is the money spent within the category of education?

A lot of countries are paying higher teacher salaries, so that could be something.

I'd argue that regardless, the US _should_ spend a lot on education. My intuition is that the problem might have more to do with how stretched parents are financially, and how their participation (or lack thereof) can affect a child's education.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#44

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

sprusr wrote: post #32
dreamdu5t wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I s…

I'm a high school student in the UK in the process of applying to university courses beginning September this year. I haven't really put much thought into why I'm applying to universities as opposed to doing something else. It just seems like the done thing. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to programming and software design, but if I were to be thrust into a working environment right now I'm sure…

This is one opinion. Please get counter-opinions for balance.

IMO only mugs and rich kids go to university in the UK now.

I doubt you'll get working skills at uni. Depending on the course, you're more likely to get mind-broadening introductions to CS ideas and techniques you're not yet familiar with - hard stuff about algorithms, difficult languages you wouldn't usually touch, and the like.

But you don't get actual work experience unless you do a course with a one-year industrial placement.

At best you get solo and group practice projects you can maybe showcase to employers.

But - here's the thing. With GitHub and StackOverflow you can get similar project experience working from home.

And academically, there is nothing at all you can learn on a CS course you can't learn from books and the Internet. You may have to find and buy a few expensive books - but you'll have to buy the books anyway.

Three years from now everyone else will be leaving uni with no practical job experience and three years of debt. You have the potential to have zero debt and one, two, or even three years of practical experience, having built a solid project portfolio that should at least get you on a shortlist for many jobs.

And if you're interested in startups and business, you're much better off getting into that as soon as you can.

Assumption - you're fine with working hard. If you just want to sleep all day, this plan won't work.

There are three downsides. One is that some tech jobs specifically demand a degree. Depending how stupid the company is, HR may specifically filter out non-degreed applicants.

That's definitely a downside, but it's only some employers,

Another is that uni gives you networking opportunities and personal friendships you won't get at work. Some can last a lifetimem. They certainly have a personal value, and in the top-rank unis they have financial value too. (To be blunt about it.) 

But if you're applying to Average Uni of Middleshire I'm not sure they're worth three years of debt and the lack of cash later when you're (e.g.) thinking about buying a house.

The final downside is that you have to look at the quality and location of the work you can get now. If you're in London or a tech hub like Cambridge, it's worth considering. Likewise Bristol, Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester, and so on.

Also, international remote. Well worth exploring.

Smaller towns - not so much. I'm sure there are small-town jobs with a future, but personally I've never seen one advertised anywhere.

So this only works if you have a realistic chance of a job with some prospects. If it's a crappy timewasting job where you learn nothing and get paid peanuts - no.

Of course you have to avoid those later too. They don't go away just because you have a degree...

tl;dr - if you decide you absolutely have to have a degree, you can always get one later. But the loan is a huge downside, and it can cripple your choices later.

It's smart to at least think about avoiding it. If you decide in the end it's worth the cost, you'll be making a conscious decision, not just following the herd.

I'd keep applying, just because. But unless things have changed you're not obligated to start a course until you sign up for one. So even if you get offers, you can look around for jobs for the next few months and not sign up for a course if you find something with prospects.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#45

Post by skalawag »

One glaring problem with the proposal is that, even where we can expect university curricula have even treatment across universities (the hard sciences, say), university curricula simply are _not_ the same. Nor are the students who take them. Does anyone really think that courses taught at (say) regional universities and the students that get through them can be measured alongside the courses/students at top tier universities? That's unlikely. For one, the students were more or less uniformly measured going in and found to differ significantly. Second, I doubt the curricula are comparable in terms of depth and coverage (I can't prove it, of course, but my experience suggests that this is so).

To be clear, I am _not_ saying there are not good courses/universities outside the top tier. I know of some. But I think that on balance, my claim would hold up.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#46

Post by barry-cotter »

sprusr wrote: post #32
dreamdu5t wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I s…

I'm a high school student in the UK in the process of applying to university courses beginning September this year. I haven't really put much thought into why I'm applying to universities as opposed to doing something else. It just seems like the done thing. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to programming and software design, but if I were to be thrust into a working environment right now I'm sure…

I strongly suggest getting a degree. Not having a degree if your alternative plan goes wrong will suck hard. Employers want a degree. Immigration agencies want a degree. The only people who don't care about a degree in most circumstances are customers.

If you were going to take a gap year anyway you could look for an internship gap, or do a bootcamp like general assembly in London or Iron Yard in Madrid/Barcelona and then intern/freelance.

This is not a defence of mass undergraduate education. I believe the social value of that is, and that the credentialism it enables is a cancer. The private returns are great though.

If you never find yourself broke and looking for a job, any job, if your career is basically uninterrupted starting from the tech space, skipping university to go straight into work will be fine. If you save a lot while working you should also be fine. You can go back to school when the economy disappears for three years if you want to.

You are unlikely to be as special as you think you are. Having a degree signals conformity, conscientiousness and intelligence. Employers really like all three. Don't commit to anything. If a gap year works out great keep going but not having a degree turns some jumpable barriers into climbable ones and makes some climbable ones impossible.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#47

Post by vacri »

mblevin wrote: post #36
guyzero wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…

This is actually the most insidious misperception that a wide swath of people appear to have about American education. It's not that the government spends too LITTLE money - it's because it spends too MUCH without any in the form of cheap student loans with no risk based pricing. Any 18 year old with no credit history can go and and take out over a $200k of student loans ($57,500 / year) from the government, without…

So, here's the crazy thing. Back-of-the-envelope, but it gives a picture. Harvard has 20,000 students, give or take. Plucking a number from the air, let's say that one year of study is $50,000. Across 20,000 students, that's $1B in tuition fees. Harvard's endownment is $36B.

For less than 3% of their endowment, they could give 'free education'. Obviously the whole picture is a little more complex, but it does add some context around funding.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#48

Post by drabiega »

mblevin wrote: post #36
guyzero wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…

This is actually the most insidious misperception that a wide swath of people appear to have about American education. It's not that the government spends too LITTLE money - it's because it spends too MUCH without any in the form of cheap student loans with no risk based pricing. Any 18 year old with no credit history can go and and take out over a $200k of student loans ($57,500 / year) from the government, without…

That 57k is the lifetime amount for undergrad, not the per semester amount.

Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it

#49

Post by guyzero »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #44
sprusr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a high school student in the UK in the process of applying to university courses beginning September this year. I haven't really put much thought into why I'm applying to universities as opposed to doing something else. It just seems like the done thing. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to programming and software design, but if I were to be thrust into a working environment right now I'm sure…

This is one opinion. Please get counter-opinions for balance. IMO only mugs and rich kids go to university in the UK now. I doubt you'll get working skills at uni. Depending on the course, you're more likely to get mind-broadening introductions to CS ideas and techniques you're not yet familiar with - hard stuff about algorithms, difficult languages you wouldn't usually touch, and the like. But you don't get actual w…

There is no GitHub or StackOverflow for mechanical engineering, civil engineering, high-voltage electrical engineering, biotech lab work, etc.

Would you hire an accountant for your business who was just enthusiastic and good with Google?

You know there are other degree programs other than CS at most universities right?

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