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Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

bbc.co.uk

191–200 of 277 posts

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a little bit off he didn't mutter any words after seizing the opportunity of his co-worker's unplanned leaving of the cockpit ?

How often do people mutter to themselves outside of movies? I never do.

Well. I often do (No conversation, more like interjections and half statements on what I am currently doing. And I never ever do that when someone else is with me, that'd be very rude.).

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a little bit off he didn't mutter any words after seizing the opportunity of his co-worker's unplanned leaving of the cockpit ?

Do we know that he didn't? My impression from investigations like this in the past is that facts tend to be released along with the conclusions that they support, presumably to keep public speculation from getting way out ahead of the actual investigation. I would not be surprised to learn in the coming days that he did say things. But I don't think we'll find out until the investigators have a solid grasp of what th…

Fair point. But if he did I suppose it would clarify the situation and we would know it.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#193
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, using some biometric safeties on the controls.

That's not foolproof either. There's always a compromise to make: if you have more automation to prevent pilot from being suicidal or making mistakes, you also have more automation that prevents a pilot - or anyone - taking over when the computer control goes wrong. Let's accept it: we may make things gradually better, but there is no silver bullet that would solve all these problems.

Fine. You authorize the whole crew, not by fingerprint and not by code, but by voice recognition and secret code words per person. Then you allow the override to be overridden by a majority (recursively). Sounds way better than making the door break when a majority of people kicks at them. It is faster than remembering and entering codes, and cannot be overridden by one sick authorized person. An attacker would have to control the whole crew to make them do what he wants, to a level where they actually speak the secret words. In an event where the crew anticipates a crash, giving in on pressure would be the worst option to take.

To prevent attackers from muting all but the required majority of crew members, sensors all over the plane must be able to record any emergency code words spoken in the event of an attack, which will enact certain security measures (depending on the code word could lock or unlock the possibility to enter the cockpit, notify air security etc). This system should of course not be able to be deactivated.

And if you really wanted to make things sure, you could install majority-authorization buttons on every seat setup to be pressed by a percentage of boarded people within a period of mere seconds, which would allow the people on the plane to make a decision. For an attacker it is not possible to make all those people press the button, since he would not know who is not complying.

Of course you can also have some remote mechanism of unlocking, although the security implications of remote authorization and transmission of commands would be complicated to get right and open too many attack vectors.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#194

2020: Airbus announces no-pilots planes 2025: All airplanes are now required to be auto-piloted 2030: It's been 5 years without a single accident

2025, Q2: Airbus remote execution vulnerability discovered. (Did you just assume 100% reliable HW+SW, on Hacker News? That's some serious handwaving...)

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#195

If we can have self driving cars then self driving planes are starting to look essential. At least until judgement day.

Without trying to be a luddite, what happens in a self-driving car crash? That is, in court, not physically. This is yet to be tested; also, what happens in a meaningful concentration of autonomous vehicles? I'd wait at least for these to be tested before declaring autonomous vehicles "essential."

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#196
It's strange that pilot didn't leave a "voice suicide note" - it was very easy to do for him, but he chosen silence.

The paper quoted in "suicide note" wikipedia article ([1]) says that "the note-leaving rate remained almost constant (23.4–36.2%)"

[1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2005....

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bruce Schneier has said several times that reinforced doors are one of the very few improvements when it comes to airplane security[1]. I think the deeper question would be, if your pilot is compromised, can you really do anything ? If the pilot of the EgyptAir Flight 990[2] could not keep his co-pilot from crashing the plane, what could a mob of random passengers realistically do? It seems to me like the DRM problem…

I think it's the same thing as intelligence (in the national security sense). You can do lots of things to prevent outsiders from getting in, but if the insiders want to circumvent the protections, they can. Someone has to have "root" access, when you can't trust that person, you are done. About the only thing I could think of is some way for people to report a problem like this and air traffic controllers on the gro…

Been there done that. The entourage I was in (30 people going to enjoy the woods) was once stopped in airport for carrying knives. Hell yeah we did, everyone did, the longest one was 40 cm long and all were carried visibly.

We just told the guards to sod off as we had our own private transport plane we were waiting for. Who on earth would hijack their own plane? Especially as there were 30 armed people on board?

That's the safest way to travel!

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#199

Is leaving for toilet the only reason for the pilot to leave the cockpit? I seen some comments on having a third person with the co-pilot if the pilot leaves, but is not another "simplistic solution" to have a toilet for pilots within the cockpit lock doors? I understand it is not as simple as "just add a toilet" but I was thinking for of future designs.

Pilots will leave the cockpit to check on parts of the plane if necessary, like looking out the passenger window to look at the wings.

On long flights pilots are also rotated in and out of rest breaks.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#200
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be mistaken but I believe airline cockpits were made to be able to lock out people from entering in the event of a terrorist activity to take over the plane. This was initiated after 9/11.

That is true. What I'm wondering about is why the plane allows a pilot to take a fatal action. For example, why would an auto-pilot system allow a jetliner to nose dive? Maybe it does not. I'm certain these scenarios have been considered, and I'm sure the developers had very solid reasons as to why something like this doesn't exist (if it actually does not). I'm curious if the plane has enough input to determine "if…

> . For example, why would an auto-pilot system allow a jetliner to nose dive?

It doesn't... usually. Everything can be overridden.

> I'm curious if the plane has enough input to determine "if we continue this course we will crash into the mountain range"

Yeah. "Whoop Whoop TERRAIN". "Whoop Whoop PULL UP"

Haven't actually heard the recording, but those are probably among the alarms in the cockpit. The pilot is still required to raise the altitude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_proximity_warning_system

As other comments pointed out, sensors are still faulty. Not sure if any airplanes actually have auto pull-up capability.

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