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Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#61

Post by maxerickson »

mjburgess wrote: post #39
verytrivial wrote: post #17

These doors very effectively mean that control of the plane would be put into the hands of the cabin crew, but magnifies the cost of a rogue operator -- I am certain the risks were evaluated and the challenge of a determined suicidal pilot was ruled outside scope. And yes, there are emergency override codes, but there are also time override-overrides from within the cabin. Even if the protocol where two members of st…

Or to put it in a more general way: is security theatre now costing lives?

The locking doors aren't theatre though, they are a specific action that has a clear impact (control over commercial planes is limited to a much smaller set of people).

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#62

Post by hvidgaard »

koyote wrote: post #26
celticninja wrote: post #7

Germanwings did not have a policy of requiring a second person in the cockpit in situations where the captain leaves the cockpit. I imagine this is going to become fault standard in aviation from now on.

I wonder how much that would have helped in this case though. Someone determined to crash a plane would not have too much of a problem incapacitating any cabin crew member (by surprise most likely) before his attempt. I believe that having a second person in the cockpit is more useful (and seemingly essential) if the Pilot/Co-Pilot loses conciousness in order for the door to still be opened.

There is a significant gap from "lock the door, and crash the plane" and to "knock a person out, and then lock the door and crash the plane". Both have the same outcome, but the first require physical confrontation that I'm certain would make a difference in some situations.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#63

Post by backtoearth »

mg1982 wrote: post #23

I'm struck by how these pilots (chilling in itself that it's happened enough times to count as its own group) are described as being suicidal. While technically true, it detracts from the greater truth that they are mass-murderers. If someone shot up a mall and killed 150 people then ate a bullet, would we describe them as suicidal? I don't have a greater point I suppose, but it seems worth thinking about. Except, pe…

Intentional air crashes are rare. Last was in Botswana/Namibia.

http://www.aeroinside.com/item/3416/lam-e190-over-botswana-n...

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#64

Post by saalweachter »

verytrivial wrote: post #17

These doors very effectively mean that control of the plane would be put into the hands of the cabin crew, but magnifies the cost of a rogue operator -- I am certain the risks were evaluated and the challenge of a determined suicidal pilot was ruled outside scope. And yes, there are emergency override codes, but there are also time override-overrides from within the cabin. Even if the protocol where two members of st…

You also have to ask whether a lack of the door lock would have prevented the crash. Can a rogue pilot crash the plane fast enough that the door locks are irrelevant? Can he crash it while the other pilot is in the cockpit? I remember other black box recordings from another crash where one pilot was merely confused, steering the plane into a crash while the others tried to save it, and no one realized what was going on until it was too late.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#65

Post by brc »

lolo_ wrote: post #16

Of course it's really early so you have to be very careful as to making judgements at this point, but if it really is pilot murder/suicide there is some (limited) precedence:- * An EgyptAir flight in 1999 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990 * A Silkair (Singapore airline) flight in 1997 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185 There is debate in both flights as to whether it was murder/suicide…

The Egyptair flight had the crashing pilot saying prayers to Allah all the way down, captured on the voice recorder. The engines were shut off and the other officer was fighting the stick all the way down. There is zero doubt as to what happened, only a political cover up by Egypt air authorities after they realised what had happened.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#66

Post by kirsebaer »

verytrivial wrote: post #17

These doors very effectively mean that control of the plane would be put into the hands of the cabin crew, but magnifies the cost of a rogue operator -- I am certain the risks were evaluated and the challenge of a determined suicidal pilot was ruled outside scope. And yes, there are emergency override codes, but there are also time override-overrides from within the cabin. Even if the protocol where two members of st…

Rate of suicide is around 1 per 10,000 people per year. But rate of murder-suicide is much lower.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#67

Post by caf »

danepowell wrote: post #53

It seems clear that in this case the co-pilot's actions were voluntary, but what if a co-pilot were to have a medical emergency while (s)he's alone in the cockpit? Would the pilot be able to re-enter? This seems like a huge risk that wasn't considered when the new strengthened cockpit doors were installed.

Apparently, on the A320 the pilot can use a keypad to re-enter the cockpit, but the door can be manually deadlocked from the inside.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#68

Post by herge »

vixen99 wrote: post #36
herge wrote: post #8

First, remember the Breaking News Consumer's Handbook: Airline Edition ( https://media2.wnyc.org/i/620/620/l/80/1/BNCHAE.jpg ). Second, I'm sure that Mr. Robin is a nice guy, but there's no need to publish his stray speculations just two days after the crash.

The co-pilot was breathing normally for ten minutes while the door was being hammered repeatedly. Interpreting this as 'deliberate' inaction is hardly 'stray speculation'.

Maybe I'm weird, but I think I'll wait for the full forensic investigation of the crash before delving into analysis of breathing patterns of the co-pilot from the black box. To each his own, I guess.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#69

Post by hvidgaard »

whizzkid wrote: post #20

Does anyone know if there are any authorization levels implemented in airplane software ? If Pilot had a root pass for the door lock, this could have ended up differently. My sincerest condolences to families of passengers..

The entire point of the door lock is to let control of the aircraft remain in the hands of the crew in the cockpit. If there was a root pass, that could be rendered useless - which is what they do not want.

Re: Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane'

#70

Post by ghostprotocl »

It's still amazing how some obvious procedures aren't standard in many airlines until something horrible happens. There should be two people in the pit at all times. If the pilot goes to take a leak an attendant takes his place until he returns. It's not really a hard procedure to implement.
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