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Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

recurse.com

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Re: Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

#51
post #5

Frankly, I'm still confused about what "recurse center" means even though I know what recursion is. I wonder what it will first mean to people outside of industry. I also can't unsee the substring "curse center". :/ Slightly off-topic: How would someone structure a study to predict the effectiveness of a rebranding?

A recurse center is is either: - a minimal room made of concrete walls, having one door and one window - a recurse center, plus the opening of one more window - the union of two recurse centres horizontally, by a tight wall-wall juxtaposition of the two of them, with the removal of one of their walls, and the opening of a door in the remaining one, if necessary - a similar vertical union, with the addition of a stair…

Unfortunately one problem with the recurse center's concrete rooms is that they were only architected to be able to handle immutable people, looking outside is strictly forbidden, and when you leave a room, it collapses.

Re: Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

#52
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't fond of the name, but you try it on for size anyway. You wince as you feel the name tighten around your body. The name is (re)cursed!

And the verb recurse is used in the name as an adjective when we already have a perfectly good adjectival form of the word— recursive —that is also more immediately familiar. People who consider recurse an ugly back-formation (preferring to recur ) will wince, cringe, and decry the gramatical turpitude all at once. But enough criticism—here's an attempt at something constructive: How about "Recursity"? The .com addre…

Sounds like they're trying to stick to a name with more lasting weight and a sense of authority. A name like Recursity may be trendy (a portmanteau ending in the letter 'y'), but I suspect ten years from now it will look very tacky.

Re: Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

#53
post #16

I love Hacker School (the entity, not the name) but Recurse Center is a strange choice. "Recurse" does not bring to mind the word "recursion" by itself, and while "School" is a meaningful word, "Center" isn't. It has no umph as a phrase. The reason for the change is completely sound, but the new name is just a little strange to me.

We were mainly torn between choosing a name that was completely meaningless and one that was mostly meaningless, but which had some connotations to programming. We opted to do the latter. All the meaningful, descriptive names we could come up with -- like "Programming Retreat" -- are too generic and/or have the same problems as "Hacker School." (We also wanted to make sure we could get the .com, and we wanted to avoid making up completely new words.)

That is to say: We expect that for almost everyone hearing it for the first time, "the Recurse Center" will be meaningless. That sounds like a bad place to be in, however, it's a much better than where we were before. Almost everyone who heard "Hacker School" for the first time had to be convinced that one or both of the words didn't mean what they thought it did in this context.

Today is day 0. Our job now is to take these largely empty words (Recurse Center) and imbue them with our values and purpose.

Glad to hear you like who we are/what we do, regardless :)

Re: Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

#54

While catchy, “Hacker School” has always been an actively bad name for us. Both words are problematic and misleading. “Hacker” is bad because so much of the world thinks of hackers as computer criminals and not clever programmers, which is the meaning we intended. And even for many people familiar with our use of the word, “hacker” can feel exclusionary. (“Hacker” was also not exactly helpful to the roughly 30% of ea…

Also present this as Exhibit A for how much of a knuckle dragger most border agents are. You really do have to pick your words carefully with them as most of their job is "gut instinct" and most aren't really that well educated or informed (even as much as knowing all of the countries).

I certainly can't speak for everyone's experience with the border officials, however I'm sure that their jargon might create some difficulties for you.

As far as "knowing all the countries," I've been across some borders where I've had to explain their own visas to them. For example, the type of visa and residence permit I had while I lived in China (specifically relating to multi-entry vs. single entry.) I've been held up at the border crossing leaving Korea for Japan because they assumed I needed a "release letter," which in fact wasn't the case; discovered only after 2 hours of being detained while they contacted my former employer. Crossing into Mexico, specifically at the inland military checkpoints, I've also have had occasional difficulties, resulting in a required "donation" to prevent my fully loaded car from being searched down to the axles. (I have family in Guadalajara and Texas, so I've made that drive frequently.)

I don't care if a border official knows Zaire from Angola -- just as long as they know the rules and regulations and apply them systematically to visitors.

Never a problem when I've gone to Serbia, but given their problems with cybercriminals, if I told the border guard that I was there to hang out with computer hackers, I suspect I'd have a rough time.

My point is that this knee-jerk insulting of US border agents is childish. You don't know "most" of them, so you have no basis for your statement. As far not being well educated, a bachelors degree in law enforcement, criminal justice, political science or accounting is generally required for UCIS agents, among other things. The fact is that you just don't like them for whatever reason, an opinion to which you are entitled, but don't mistake your bias for actual fact.

Spend some time crossing borders around the world, especially in former Soviet countries, East Asia, Latin America, then come back and make the claim that US border agents are somehow less intelligent than you would like. Try border crossings in Lebanon or Saudi Arabia. Cross the border from Serbia into Kosovo as a non-Serbian/Kosovar citizen. The Chinese border can be loads of fun, especially at a land crossing. The UK can be especially rough depending on your nationality, though admittedly, I've always just sailed through the line.

As far as the school's name change, the comment about 30% of their attendees cross the border to go there. Is there any data or facts regarding the "hard time" those people had? Just saying it was "difficult" doesn't really explain how it was difficult. Where entries denied based exclusively that they were attending Hacker School? I'm not sure what the "difficulty" actually was. And since Hacker School isn't an actual SEVP educational institution that can sponsor student visas, then that would mean they have students studying as part of their organization on tourist visas, which is against the rules of the tourist visa. It also is against the rules of the Visa Waiver Program to enroll in any kind of educational institution -- degree granting or not.

So that begs the question: where the problems with immigration because visitors where entering the country with a purpose inconsistent with their visa? I think that explains more than the institutions name. However, if Hacker School is representing itself as a self-improvement center, then of course a tourist visa would work, however that wouldn't explain the border problems since a tourist visa does not require a declared itinerary -- so Hacker School would never be a required part of the border entry formalities.

I'm wondering what legal basis is being used for the attendee's visas. If it's a job training program, then that is considered "vocational" training and that requires an "M" visa. Short "recreational" study is permitted under a B (tourist) visa, however Hacker School isn't recreational. Their compensation is from recruiting employees, which puts it into a different category than taking a yoga class.

I personally think what HS does is great and I support them, but I do think that international attendees ought to be very, very careful when it comes to the visas. Misrepresenting or having a stay inconsistent with your visa status can result in a permanent entry ban if caught. The smart move for Hacker School is to get certified by Homeland Security, then they'll be able to sponsor student visas. If anyone's interested in what schools are legal, here's a link: http://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/school-search?field_school_n...

Re: Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

#56

I noticed the testimonials on the front page [0] have all be modified to say "Recurse Center" even though some are years old. A quick Internet Archive check [1] confirms they originally read "Hacker School". I'm not sure if this is completely ethical; granted, it's just a name change, but they are presented as being direct quotes, while clearly they no longer are. 0: https://www.recurse.com/#testimonials 1: https://w…

I asked every one of the people who wrote those if they were comfortable with my updating the name in their testimonials prior to changing them.

Ah, then I guess it's the same as if they had just said the updated quote. Thanks for clearing that up!

Re: Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

#57
post #28

Quick anecdote: A close friend of mine had recently graduated college and after a series of interviews got in Hacker School. When he went for the visa interview (in India), the officer got really wary of him on learning that he's going to US, right after graduating of college, with no job to a place called "Hacker School". He had open the website and spend a long time in explaining him in what HS is about. Quite expe…

I had very similar experience, but was able to convince the immigration officer that Hacker School has nothing to do with Hackers nor Schools (which require F1 visas). That was a fun experience and added to the charm of the original name :)

Actually, Hacker School is vocational and requires an "M" visa. But, Hacker School isn't a Student and Exchange Visitor Program certified school. So they can't sponsor visas. Which would explain exactly why denials would be happening. The purpose of the stay is "study" but the visa type is "tourist." That's the reason for rejections. It isn't the school name that creates the problem, it's the mismatched purpose of trip/visa type.

I'm not sure why you'd be convincing the Immigration Officer of anything, assuming you were at the port of entry with a valid visa. If you were trying to get the visa, then that would be a Consular Officer. There's a lot more that goes into visa issuance than the name "Hacker School." One of the big things would be proof of adequate funds plus a compelling reason to return home. Essentially, you have to convince the consular officer that you don't intend to violate your visa.

Re: Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

#58

Quick anecdote: A close friend of mine had recently graduated college and after a series of interviews got in Hacker School. When he went for the visa interview (in India), the officer got really wary of him on learning that he's going to US, right after graduating of college, with no job to a place called "Hacker School". He had open the website and spend a long time in explaining him in what HS is about. Quite expe…

He wasn't denied because of "Hacker School." He was likely denied because the odds where (in the opinion of the consular officer,) that the no-job, fresh graduate would have attempted to get a job in the United States. Especially since Hacker School themselves say that they are funded from job placements.

Re: Hacker School is now the Recurse Center

#60
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had very similar experience, but was able to convince the immigration officer that Hacker School has nothing to do with Hackers nor Schools (which require F1 visas). That was a fun experience and added to the charm of the original name :)

I had no problems at all. I would be interested in the correlation between rejection and skin colour.

Skin color has nothing to do with visa rejections. There are thousands of visas issued each day in all sorts of "dark skinned" countries. The issue is if the person is likely to overstay their visa. Do they have a job? A family? A bank account? Own property? Have other compelling reasons to return to their home country. If they are young, unemployed and single without many other resources; a denial is likely, for obvious reasons.
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