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Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

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Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#21

The fact that it's CNNIC that has issued these dangerous certificates is not exactly relevant to the problem at hand; More than one root authority has made mistakes in delegation, and several have made the mistake of not checking the delegation bit and allowing third-parties to request intermediate certificates. Still, it bears repeating that CNNIC, which is effectively a branch of the chinese government, has a root…

I'm on FF 36.0 on Kubuntu 14.10 - I removed the certs for CNNIC and then to test went to the CNNIC website and rewrote the address as https. Website still shows the lock symbol and still shows the cert verified by the CNNIC root CA?!? Seems the removal is slightly glitchy somehow, third time worked.

2 things I notice:

1) there are a lot of default trusted suppliers, seems that this should perhaps be selected on install (trust all or trust local [geographic] or trust by selecting regions).

2) that unlike with cookies you don't get a record of how often a certificate (or CA) has been used - so I can't tell from looking at the certificate information FF holds whether I've ever used the dozen or so Turkish certs for example; this seems like useful information for users that's not being displayed. I only use Turkey as an example because I don't use Turkish websites [I barely know a handful of Turkish words] nor AFAIK any Turkish company's English language sites.

Why would I need to trust geographically and linguistically distant CA's by default? If I decide to do something with a .cn site that needs a https connection it seems that I should be able to get info like "these CA - you already trust - in turn 'trust' this CA which certifies the site you are accessing". That along with any warnings the browser wants to give on malware or phishing then would feed in to a decision to accept the cert and interact "securely" with the site in question. The sites I actual need secure transactions with are probably certified by less than a dozen CA; trusting hundreds by default then seems poor security practice [to this layman].

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#22
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Action is really needed. Lot of good people taking action on this. There are solutions that totally solve this problem. Talk about them here though, you'll get downvoted (just see my comments). It means either: people want security theater, or they're completely ignorant about the topic.

I think people have different definitions of "solutions that totally solve this problem". If your solution totally solves this problem technically , but is unlikely to be deployed in the real world, it is not a solution that totally solves this problem in my book. Although I wouldn't downvote such claims, I can understand people downvoting "total solution" claims if the solution clearly is not (according to the above…

> If your solution totally solves this problem technically, but is unlikely to be deployed in the real world, it is not a solution that totally solves this problem in my book.

The solution is deployed in the real world for some websites right now, and it would take Google less effort to implement for their websites than the effort they're putting into CT.

I suspect these comments are getting downvoted for reasons that have nothing to do with technical (or social) merit.

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#23
post #14

The fact that it's CNNIC that has issued these dangerous certificates is not exactly relevant to the problem at hand; More than one root authority has made mistakes in delegation, and several have made the mistake of not checking the delegation bit and allowing third-parties to request intermediate certificates. Still, it bears repeating that CNNIC, which is effectively a branch of the chinese government, has a root…

My gut agrees with you, but I found Ryan Sleevi's arguments on this thread interesting (the proposal at hand is to require, effectively, a *.cn name constraint on CNNIC): https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.security... "Another reason is it encourages the trust store to be used for regional or arbitrary distinctions ('not designed to be served by that CA'). This amounts to naught more than recognizing…

I vaguely remember when talking to some ICANN people that there were talks of a system to restrict the domains which the individual root-CAs were allowed to sign for. I don't remember what happened to that.

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#24

The fact that it's CNNIC that has issued these dangerous certificates is not exactly relevant to the problem at hand; More than one root authority has made mistakes in delegation, and several have made the mistake of not checking the delegation bit and allowing third-parties to request intermediate certificates. Still, it bears repeating that CNNIC, which is effectively a branch of the chinese government, has a root…

I'm on FF 36.0 on Kubuntu 14.10 - I removed the certs for CNNIC and then to test went to the CNNIC website and rewrote the address as https. Website still shows the lock symbol and still shows the cert verified by the CNNIC root CA?!? Seems the removal is slightly glitchy somehow, third time worked. 2 things I notice: 1) there are a lot of default trusted suppliers, seems that this should perhaps be selected on insta…

I'm not thinking very hard about it, but that second bullet sounds like a really good idea.

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#25

The fact that it's CNNIC that has issued these dangerous certificates is not exactly relevant to the problem at hand; More than one root authority has made mistakes in delegation, and several have made the mistake of not checking the delegation bit and allowing third-parties to request intermediate certificates. Still, it bears repeating that CNNIC, which is effectively a branch of the chinese government, has a root…

I'm on FF 36.0 on Kubuntu 14.10 - I removed the certs for CNNIC and then to test went to the CNNIC website and rewrote the address as https. Website still shows the lock symbol and still shows the cert verified by the CNNIC root CA?!? Seems the removal is slightly glitchy somehow, third time worked. 2 things I notice: 1) there are a lot of default trusted suppliers, seems that this should perhaps be selected on insta…

It is true that the sites people actually need secure transactions with are certified by less than a dozen CA. The problem is those dozen CAs are not the same dozen CAs.

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#26

The fact that it's CNNIC that has issued these dangerous certificates is not exactly relevant to the problem at hand; More than one root authority has made mistakes in delegation, and several have made the mistake of not checking the delegation bit and allowing third-parties to request intermediate certificates. Still, it bears repeating that CNNIC, which is effectively a branch of the chinese government, has a root…

I don't think I've ever come across a legitimate website using a certificate issued by CNNIC. It's probably okay to just distruct it altogether.

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people have different definitions of "solutions that totally solve this problem". If your solution totally solves this problem technically , but is unlikely to be deployed in the real world, it is not a solution that totally solves this problem in my book. Although I wouldn't downvote such claims, I can understand people downvoting "total solution" claims if the solution clearly is not (according to the above…

> If your solution totally solves this problem technically, but is unlikely to be deployed in the real world, it is not a solution that totally solves this problem in my book. The solution is deployed in the real world for some websites right now, and it would take Google less effort to implement for their websites than the effort they're putting into CT. I suspect these comments are getting downvoted for reasons tha…

In my opinion, web browser extensions are not a viable way to deploy the solution to this problem. As far as I can tell, DNSChain has no buy in from web browser vendors. That makes it undeployable.

It is irrelevant (or not very relevant) that it would take less effort than CT for Google. What is relevant is that Google is willing to implement CT, and not willing to implement DNSChain. Yes, this has nothing to do with technical merit, but it has a lot to do with actual merit of the solution in improving the current situation.

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#28

The fact that it's CNNIC that has issued these dangerous certificates is not exactly relevant to the problem at hand; More than one root authority has made mistakes in delegation, and several have made the mistake of not checking the delegation bit and allowing third-parties to request intermediate certificates. Still, it bears repeating that CNNIC, which is effectively a branch of the chinese government, has a root…

I'm on FF 36.0 on Kubuntu 14.10 - I removed the certs for CNNIC and then to test went to the CNNIC website and rewrote the address as https. Website still shows the lock symbol and still shows the cert verified by the CNNIC root CA?!? Seems the removal is slightly glitchy somehow, third time worked. 2 things I notice: 1) there are a lot of default trusted suppliers, seems that this should perhaps be selected on insta…

Etsy built a tool to log CA certs at their network perimeter [1]:

    During the two months we’ve had CAWatch in operation,
    we’ve seen only 61 unique CA certificates cross the
    wire. This accounts for slightly less than 29% of the
    212 total CA certificates installed by default in our
    standard build
[1] https://codeascraft.com/2013/07/16/reducing-the-roots-of-som...

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#29
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your solution totally solves this problem technically, but is unlikely to be deployed in the real world, it is not a solution that totally solves this problem in my book. The solution is deployed in the real world for some websites right now, and it would take Google less effort to implement for their websites than the effort they're putting into CT. I suspect these comments are getting downvoted for reasons tha…

In my opinion, web browser extensions are not a viable way to deploy the solution to this problem. As far as I can tell, DNSChain has no buy in from web browser vendors. That makes it undeployable. It is irrelevant (or not very relevant) that it would take less effort than CT for Google. What is relevant is that Google is willing to implement CT, and not willing to implement DNSChain. Yes, this has nothing to do with…

> In my opinion, web browser extensions are not a viable way to deploy the solution to this problem. As far as I can tell, DNSChain has no buy in from web browser vendors. That makes it undeployable.

One of the reasons why browser vendors are having a tough time actually fixing this problem is because CAs make a lot of money off of selling SSL certificates.

We're working to remove obstacles out of their way by making it easier for them to support auth systems that do not rely on today's broken system.

> What is relevant is that Google is willing to implement CT, and not willing to implement DNSChain. Yes, this has nothing to do with technical merit, but it has a lot to do with actual merit of the solution in improving the current situation.

Google hasn't made up its mind on DNSChain-type solutions.

Remember, CT wouldn't have prevented this attack. If they actually want to prevent such attacks, they have no choice but to actually fix the problem.

Re: Google warns of unauthorized TLS certificates trusted by almost all OSes

#30
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the operational difficulty of implementing a transparently-MITMing proxy in a Certificate Transparency regime, I'm not sure you can say with certainty that it wouldn't have prevented this attack. Every time you want to MITM a new site, you need to contact some number of auditors before you can complete the connection. That sounds difficult to implement reliably and quickly enough for a MITM to work. (Not to men…

> Given the operational difficulty of implementing a transparently-MITMing proxy in a Certificate Transparency regime, I'm not sure you can say with certainty that it wouldn't have prevented this attack. Every time you want to MITM a new site, you need to contact some number of auditors before you can complete the connection. 1. Certs don't need to include SCTs, so, end of story. 2. Even if that was a requirement, th…

> 2. Even if that was a requirement, they can be faked just like the certificate.

I'm trying to understand how this works. (If they can be faked, then yes, that's fatal for CT, but I don't think the CT proponents acknowledge that, so either someone is very wrong, or the truth is subtler than that.)

The okTurtles blogpost, in the section about the first "inaccurate" claim, says, "The SCT (signed certificate timestamp) is pretty much irrelevant in this type of attack since the MITM either can order CA/log combos to do what they want, or they own and operate one of the 1200+ CAs out there (in a clandestine operation), or they’ve hacked their way into obtaining the CA/log private keys they need to conduct mass-surveillance on any website they want (undetected)."

The words "can order" are linked to a page about national security letters. It's true that CT does not protect you against an arbitrarily misbehaving hegemonic government, but if that's in your threat model, a lot of security analyses fly out the door. In this particular case, though, the malicious actor was not a government, so we can rule that one out. (Much as the Chinese government is an attractive target of blame, in this case, it seems like the misissuance was from a private corporation in Egypt. CNNIC voluntarily reported the issue to Mozilla; though it's unclear if Google alerted them first, clearly there was no governmental intention to MITM here.)

I don't understand what being a CA (either by actually being a CA, or by hacking into one) is supposed to gain you here. CT is designed to protect against CA misbehavior. If the argument is that it doesn't prevent a MITM, it just permits one to be detected, then yes, but that isn't faking an SCT. I'm happy to argue about whether detection vs. prevention is useful, but I just want to be clear that that's a different argument.

So that leaves "they’ve hacked their way into obtaining the CA/log private keys they need to conduct mass-surveillance on any website they want (undetected)". Assuming we're talking about "log" here out of "CA/log", then, first, this significantly raises the bar to an attack. This particular attack was done because a non-CA entity asked a CA to sign an intermediate, and lied to the CA about how it would be used. No hacking was involved. In order to conduct the same attack in a CT world, the entity would also have to set up their own log and get it trusted (who would trust it?), or ask the CA for the CA's private key (which would be a "no, and please stop being our customer"), or hack into the CA.

Second, that presupposes that the CT site's claim that log misbehavior is detectable is untrue in a fairly major way. (This is a reasonable claim to make, I'm just trying to figure out if that's the claim you're making.)

In any case, I don't see an argument that it can be faked just like the certificate. It's significantly more work, and involves suborning a legitimate log. Faking a certificate merely involves abusing an intermediate, which is a product that (unfortunately) gets sold for legitimate use, on trust. That trust cannot be abused to generate an SCT the way it can be abused to generate a signed certificate.

> It doesn't prevent MITM attacks (even Google acknowledges that), so it's not a solution (if preventing attacks is what you want).

It prevents some MITM attacks, by disincentivizing them or making them logistically complicated. It does not prevent all of them. It is not a perfect solution, but it is a partial and pretty good solution. I said in my initial post that it's not my favorite solution, but it's my favorite realistic solution.

In particular, CT would have completely prevented this attack.

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