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Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

nytimes.com

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#91

Post by skinnylatte »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #39
DevX101 wrote: post #11

One of the greatest leaders of modern times. Singapore was a backwater country with no natural resources when he came to power. It's since evolved into one of the primary economic hubs in Asia, with a higher per-capita GDP than her former colonizers, Great Britain. To transform a country in such short a time is nothing short of remarkable.

You might want to look deeper into that. Economically Singapore has been well run, every other way is up for debate.

Every other way is up for debate?

We have a good education system, and I would not trade our healthcare system for what you're likely used to; as a gay Singaporean, I have no curtailing of my social freedoms. I cannot marry or adopt legally yet, but that's the conversation that we're soon going to have (and which the "West" has only just recently gotten). The civil service is good. More can be done for the low income, and that's happening at the moment. The roads are clean and everything gets fixed. I walk around the city at any time of day and night with no fear, in any neighbourhood. Which ways are up for debate?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#92

Post by skinnylatte »

kyllo wrote: post #7
sanxiyn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a problem?

Go to Singapore and see how the immigrant laborers from South Asia live, how the native Malays live, and then how the ethnic Chinese and Western expats live. It's a highly stratified society where money makes the rules.

Have you seen how the poor 'native Malays', poor 'ethnic Chinese', poor 'ethnic Indians' and 'lower class Western expats' live... side-by-side, in rather bad neighbourhoods (which would seem spectacular in most Western countries)?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#93

Post by skinnylatte »

unethical_ban wrote: post #73
sjwright wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You made the comparison, you can't say it wasn't meant to be a comparison. Strip away the jingoism, and I really don't see how the USA is any less of a police state than Singapore. From stop-and-frisk to civil forfeiture and the TSA, the United States is every bit a police state with just a thin outer layer of constitutional democracy. I've lived in both countries for extended periods, and I know which I'd prefer to…

At least in America, we can bitch about it and (mostly) not be jailed or murdered for it. Heck, sometimes, things even change for the better.

Here in Singapore, you can bitch about it and not be jailed or murdered for it. We bitch about (everything) most of the time. We also have a healthy assumption that we are never going to be murdered in our lifetimes in Singapore, and that things do get better most of the time, which is more than can be said for America.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#94

Post by skinnylatte »

jpatokal wrote: post #81
sjwright wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can bitch about police corruption in Singapore -- rare as it is. The media isn't afraid to report, and the government isn't afraid to act. And sure, you can bitch about it in the USA -- common as it is. Except the media doesn't care (unless you have particularly compelling video footage) and the government is too scared to act.

Are you serious? Here's an actual case of corruption at a government-linked org in Singapore: in particular, look how three people making claims that later turned out to entirely factual were sued into apologizing, and the bubble only burst when the NKF made the mistake of suing somebody even better-connected to the establishment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Kidney_Foundation_Sin...

So we are too corrupt or are we too authoritarian?

After all we just jailed a man over pineapple tart corruption.

NKF is not the government. That's kind of like saying that TSA molests people, and that the federal government is responsible for it.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#95

Post by skinnylatte »

contingencies wrote: post #60
jpatokal wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, how would you rank Singapore against its neighbors Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia?

Far more totalitarian.

Seriously? Have you been to any of these countries?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#96

Post by netvarun »

skinnylatte wrote: post #90
jpatokal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opinion above was formed by living in Singapore for ~8 years and continuing to take an active interest in its affairs for the next 5. You're welcome to disagree, but please tell me why then instead of just downvoting...

I'm a Singaporean. I've worked in opposition politics. I'm going to be voting this year. Here are a few thoughts: - your understanding of the Lees in Singapore have no historical context. You cannot view his leadership in a vacuum. You cannot look at Singapore politics and say it needs a dash of 'Western liberalism & democracy' and proclaim Chee Soon Juan one of its administrators. LKY, and the Singapore of his time,…

This is a really well-written comment. Thank you very much.

I'm Singaporean (though currently based in San Francisco) and identify myself as a supporter of the PAP.

I am currently traveling, and unfortunately got hold of LKY's passing a little late (though I had been following his health the past few days) and still feeling a little shell-shocked. I am personally very disappointed at all the comments on HN - most of them drowned out by expats and armchair political scientists.

Well if you had grown up in Singapore, read it's history, lived in HDB flats, recited the pledge and national anthem every goddamn day in school, played football at the void decks, served in the army, you will come to realize what a genius LKY was.

It's nice to see a message from a Singaporean from the other side.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#97

Post by netvarun »

jpatokal wrote: post #37
jpatokal wrote: post #29

Singapore is in for some seriously interesting times. Lee Kuan Yew did a masterful job of getting Singapore up to speed after independence, but like so many leaders over-identified with their nation, he overstayed his welcome. The Lee family's tentacles are firmly entrenched in the politics and businesses of Singapore, and while I hope they will have the common sense to tolerate the inevitable rise of the opposition…

The opinion above was formed by living in Singapore for ~8 years and continuing to take an active interest in its affairs for the next 5. You're welcome to disagree, but please tell me why then instead of just downvoting...

I downvoted you because you cherrypicked a quote from LKY without any context and of all people, you had to quote Chee Soon Juan - that quite shows that you don't have ground reality or an understanding of Singaporean politics.

[Source: I'm Singaporean]

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#98

Post by contingencies »

skinnylatte wrote: post #95
contingencies wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far more totalitarian.

Seriously? Have you been to any of these countries ?

Singapore: Yes, 5-10 times between 1989 and 2014. It's gotten a hell of a lot more generic and 1984-like in that time. The character once present been trampled in favor of dystopian public housing for immigrant laborers and a cleanliness. Frankly, last time I was there it gave me the creeps so much I was haunted by the smiley-faced actors in the propaganda-piece on permanent repeat in the airline departure lounge.

Thailand: Perhaps 30+ times from 1989 to two weeks ago. My wife (mainland Chinese Muslim) and I lived there for awhile, and our daughter was born there. We can read and write to some extent, speak the language, and have many friends - local and foreign - from all levels of society (journalism, finance, diplomacy, mafias, restaurant and bar operators, media, etc.) including those who have been 'kicked out'.

Malaysia: Perhaps 5-10 times from 1989 to a month ago, including smaller islands, though never to Borneo. It has a worrying governmental tendency to trend toward the Singaporean model, however away from KL this is lessened. Many successful Malaysians are either economic migrants to Singapore or operate businesses owned in some way by Singapore-resident straits Chinese.

Indonesia: Twice since 2012, but for months at a time spanning the most populous parts of the archipelago. Have had in-depth one-on-one discussions about the history of western relations with its diplomats. Have been invited to attend conferences in its national university. Owing to corruption, it has its issues, but it has preserved a certain admirable diversity that increases as you move east. Sure, they have their problems (eg. deforestation). However, the two faced Singaporean government blames the Singapore-owned palm oil plantations - burned regularly - on Indonesia ... but in fact I've had Singapore-resident Straits Chinese admit to me they own them.

What about you, just-arrived 7 point karma naysayer?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#99

Post by skinnylatte »

contingencies wrote: post #98
skinnylatte wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Have you been to any of these countries ?

Singapore: Yes, 5-10 times between 1989 and 2014. It's gotten a hell of a lot more generic and 1984-like in that time. The character once present been trampled in favor of dystopian public housing for immigrant laborers and a cleanliness. Frankly, last time I was there it gave me the creeps so much I was haunted by the smiley-faced actors in the propaganda-piece on permanent repeat in the airline departure lounge. Th…

I joined because I'm frankly a little amused by some of these comments.

More totalitarian: how do you quantify that?

I was born and brought up in Singapore and do business in all those countries (tech startup). That sentiment is alien (and not just because I'm Singaporean), it's because Malaysia for example is more totalitarian and is also on the way to becoming a failed state economically and socially. You seem to be reasonably well-versed in the cultural aspects of those countries, but how much of the political institutions do you know — to back up such a claim, anyway? Have you seen Thailand and the junta lately?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#100

Post by skinnylatte »

netvarun wrote: post #96
skinnylatte wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Singaporean. I've worked in opposition politics. I'm going to be voting this year. Here are a few thoughts: - your understanding of the Lees in Singapore have no historical context. You cannot view his leadership in a vacuum. You cannot look at Singapore politics and say it needs a dash of 'Western liberalism & democracy' and proclaim Chee Soon Juan one of its administrators. LKY, and the Singapore of his time,…

This is a really well-written comment. Thank you very much. I'm Singaporean (though currently based in San Francisco) and identify myself as a supporter of the PAP. I am currently traveling, and unfortunately got hold of LKY's passing a little late (though I had been following his health the past few days) and still feeling a little shell-shocked. I am personally very disappointed at all the comments on HN - most of…

I'm also willing to wager that most of these armchair political scientists hate on Singapore because "it's not Asia" (meaning not poor enough). So much BS.

"I went to America once and here is everything I have to say about American politics and its people, and if you disagree you must be a brainwashed American."

Meh.

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