“So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary” • Hacker News Board

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#131

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 2:47 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #88

fsloth wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weeel now. As an example Finland - while there is a fairly functional state paid health service, most affluent people take the health insurance anyway and go to private clinics for day-to-day needs to avoid the public queues. Most eployees have a compulsory medical coverage by the employers, which is a bought service from the private clinics. Thus the medical scene is a bit more complex than "state pays it all". It c…

In Finland, there's not really a compulsory medical coverage by employers. The only compulsory part is planning and processes to prevent work-related health hazards and harms, and to protect and advance workplace safety, ability to work and health. (See law 2001/1383) So, some paperwork is mandatory, no actual health care. The reason many employers voluntarily provide an actual health insurance (or simply reimburse p…

[deleted]

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#132

Post by jchrisa » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 2:51 PM UTC

The interesting point that no one is discussing here is his assertion that the research program was changed in reaction to the hippies, to focus on tools of social control instead of ways to reduce time in wage labor.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#133

Post by TeMPOraL » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 2:51 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #124

crdoconnor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Ok, so that's one that you cherry picked. How about these? * Private equity CEOs * Lobbyists * PR researchers * Telemarketers * Bailiffs Tell us how the world would be worse off without them. You could argue that some of these are doing actual harm to society, actually.

You honestly can't be so arrogant so as to assume that if you can't see the benefit of an activity, that it must not have any benefit, right? Lobbyists are critical to the functioning of the American system of government. They're even mentioned in the Constitution. Private equity firms make retirement possible. PR researchers enable companies to not have to deal exclusively with the populist swaying of public opinion…

Go on. I'd like to see how telemarketing is useful. For me, it's a more demeaning job than being a prostitute - at least in the latter case, two parties engage in a mutually beneficial exchange of value. The job of a telemarketer is to trick a person into wasting his/her hard-earned money on a subpar product the person doesn't even need.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#134

Post by CPLX » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #60

crdoconnor wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. There is no need to price the cost of insuring a 30 year old white male living in Croydon. If he is ill, he gets treatment. If he is not ill, he doesn't. The only thing close to actuarial science that the NHS actually needs is QALYS calculations. This is only really used for calculating how worthwhile very expensive treatments that target the very old or very disabled. The number of people needed to do th…

Then they need to estimate how many procedures of each kind to contract, or how large facilities to maintain, in Croydon. Which in part depends on the number of 30 year old white males living there. If they get it wrong, he doesn't magically get treatment anyway. He either has to wait, or travel elsewhere (and someone still has to figure out where and when). Otherwise, they waste money on unused capacity.

Perhaps, but you don't need an army of sophisticated actuaries to figure this year's number for Croydon is not too different from the last 20 years of data. There are some prediction and budgeting problems to solve of course but they are of an entirely different character when you're not dealing with a for profit or marketplace solution.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#135

Post by fsloth » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 3:08 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #88

fsloth wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weeel now. As an example Finland - while there is a fairly functional state paid health service, most affluent people take the health insurance anyway and go to private clinics for day-to-day needs to avoid the public queues. Most eployees have a compulsory medical coverage by the employers, which is a bought service from the private clinics. Thus the medical scene is a bit more complex than "state pays it all". It c…

In Finland, there's not really a compulsory medical coverage by employers. The only compulsory part is planning and processes to prevent work-related health hazards and harms, and to protect and advance workplace safety, ability to work and health. (See law 2001/1383) So, some paperwork is mandatory, no actual health care. The reason many employers voluntarily provide an actual health insurance (or simply reimburse p…

"So, some paperwork is mandatory, no actual health care."

The way the law is brought to action is that the private clinics have specific service tiers which they offer to employers, of which even the basic one covers consultation by a general practitioner. The easiest way for employers to fulfill the letter of the law is to buy the service.

Which means that working adults seldom tend to the public services unless they are really ill, which means more business for the private clinics and increases the appeal of a health insurance (it's easier).

This is getting really obscure for this forum, but as a reference: The specific law is

https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2001/20011383

Which in google translate is

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=y&prev...

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#136

Post by glesica » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

fwn wrote: post #115

glesica wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but we have to automate all the "bullshit jobs" before that can happen. Otherwise people who don't want to be doing them get stuck doing them. "Bullshit job" isn't a judgement against people who enjoy something, it is a judgement against the system that forces people to do "work", even when they aren't interested in it and it doesn't really contribute much to society.

> "Bullshit job" isn't a judgement against people [...] it is a judgement against the system that forces people to do "work"[...] and it doesn't really contribute much to society. I know this is probably not what you've meant, but: I do think that this can be seen as pretty judgemental. Contribution (without parameters/scale) to society (without further specification) feels very subjective to me.

You're right, that sounded pretty pretentious and high-horsey. I just meant that if a job can be automated cheaply, then we all generally benefit from automating it, assuming the people previously doing it are cared for.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#137

Post by gtz62 » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

kokey wrote: post #37

I read this as a rant from someone saying technology hasn't come far enough, but spent decades of his own time not doing anything about improving technology for society himself. He sounds like a consumer, complaining about the service he is receiving. The fact that he could have lived his bohemic lifestyle shielded from this so long is evidence of how well it has been working. There is certainly a problem with ineffi…

instead of insulting Graeber, what do you think about his ideas? For example, do people think their jobs are worthwhile?

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#138

Post by fsloth » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 3:16 PM UTC

jonsen wrote: post #34

msh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of Europe works perfectly well with out health insurance.

It is still insurance when administered by the government and payed through taxes.

The dynamics of the financial incentives involved are a bit different with goverment provided health care and private clinics funded through medical insurance.

Private clinics which are the main receivers of insurance money are often owned by the doctors. Thus, they have an incentive to over-charge, over diagnose and run expensive labs whenever they can. I'm not saying it happens, just that the incentive is there. Government provided healthcare offers no financial incentives for practicioners to over-diagnose - on the contrary this system then incentivizes to be as prudish as possible with the public resources.

I'm not saying one or the other is better or worse, just that they are not equal in every way.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#139

Post by sktrdie » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 3:21 PM UTC

aerocapture wrote: post #92

Instead of asking ourselves which particular jobs are "bullshit" and which are not, maybe we should ask why we need or want "jobs" at all. If every citizen received some minimum universal basic income, what might we do with our time instead of going to jobs we hate? I think the point might be that we've reached a state of technological progress where many of the functions of a modern civilization can be handled by a…

Wouldn't a UBI simply be inflationary? That is, rather than making 0 you make 1500 (say). But since everybody is making 1500, then it would be the same as making 0 again.

So unless we have strict blocks on pricing things, UBI seems nonsensical.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#140

Post by Tycho » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 3:23 PM UTC

An interesting thing to ponder is how people employed in imminently-automatable jobs will react. Bearing in mind that no one can openly oppose automation when it makes business sense. So barring retraining to a still-needed skill, what might they do instead? I feel like there is some interesting application of game theory to be had here.