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“So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

theguardian.com

11–20 of 206 posts

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#11

I can't say I'm surprised and I much agree with this. I've held many positions in both the private and public sector. While the public sector was always inefficient (honestly it was significantly worse than I pictured before starting...far far worse like you could easily eliminate hundreds of jobs without impact worse) private sector is pretty bad in many places as well. It's also amazing what networking can do to ge…

> While the public sector was always inefficient (honestly it was significantly worse than I pictured before starting...far far worse like you could easily eliminate hundreds of jobs without impact worse) private sector is pretty bad in many places as well.

I've worked in a public sector department that was run like a business. It was a contact centre that provided information and assistance with various government functions, but to do so it, it competed with private sector providers at open tender for the business of those various government departments.

Of course, it had a massive price advantage, as it was a) small and focused and b) not required to turn a profit.

That aside, it was run like a business, because if any customers were significantly displeased, the clients could easily move to another provider. So the focus on quality was high.

It ultimately provided a quality service to users, cheaply. But, and this was the important takeaway for me, the person running it burned all of his political capital protecting this highly performant section of a ministry from interference from other mandarins within the ministry.

He was a good man, and he expended his career protecting efficiency in the midst of public sector "meh".

Anyway, my long winded point is that public sector isn't inherently inefficient, and private sector isn't inherently efficient. Any sufficiently large organisation sprouts a self-sustaining bureaucracy. Public or private. In my mind, it's merely correlation that public sector organisations are typically inefficient. The causation is organisational complexity (that is, a large strata of middle managers)

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#12
post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

I expect he wants the world to change more fundamentally than that - per your example, if you have a good state-provided health service then the health insurance question is simply no longer an issue. There are of course countries that do this already.

I think motor insurance would be a more difficult one to do away with - the question being if people didn't have to pay for any accidents they caused (via insurance premiums), would risk-taking increase to the point where the cost to the state became untenable? Then again if we lived in a futuristic society looked after by self-maintaining solar-powered robots then any service would essentially be free so maybe it wouldn't matter.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#13
post #9
post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

I think actuary is a poor example. Graeber himself would might correct himself if he was reminded of what he just said. It's probably a waste of time to hone in on that particular off the cuff statement. There are still plenty of jobs which are bullshit though. For example my girlfriend is an auditor. Most of her job would disappear if the infrastructure existed to have her clients financial records completely digiti…

The list was a list of jobs that people self declared as useless, not which Graeber decided were useless.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#14
"in 1930, economist John Maynard Keynes predicted that by the end of the century technology would have advanced sufficiently that in countries such as the UK and the US we’d be on 15-hour weeks. “In technological terms, we are quite capable of this. And yet it didn’t happen. Instead, technology has been marshalled, if anything, to figure out ways to make us all work more. Huge swaths of people, in Europe and North America in particular, spend their entire working lives performing tasks they believe to be unnecessary."

Sounds about right actually...

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think actuary is a poor example. Graeber himself would might correct himself if he was reminded of what he just said. It's probably a waste of time to hone in on that particular off the cuff statement. There are still plenty of jobs which are bullshit though. For example my girlfriend is an auditor. Most of her job would disappear if the infrastructure existed to have her clients financial records completely digiti…

The list was a list of jobs that people self declared as useless, not which Graeber decided were useless.

Are you sure? In the article it looks like it's a direct quote from Graeber.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#16

I can't say I'm surprised and I much agree with this. I've held many positions in both the private and public sector. While the public sector was always inefficient (honestly it was significantly worse than I pictured before starting...far far worse like you could easily eliminate hundreds of jobs without impact worse) private sector is pretty bad in many places as well. It's also amazing what networking can do to ge…

> While the public sector was always inefficient (honestly it was significantly worse than I pictured before starting...far far worse like you could easily eliminate hundreds of jobs without impact worse) private sector is pretty bad in many places as well. I've worked in a public sector department that was run like a business. It was a contact centre that provided information and assistance with various government f…

Graeber's argument in the book is that businesses are actually run like the government, ie are bureaucratic institutions (that pretend to be "markets"). He has an interesting story about how they were modelled on the post office originally, when large businesses arose in the late nineteenth century.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#17

I can't say I'm surprised and I much agree with this. I've held many positions in both the private and public sector. While the public sector was always inefficient (honestly it was significantly worse than I pictured before starting...far far worse like you could easily eliminate hundreds of jobs without impact worse) private sector is pretty bad in many places as well. It's also amazing what networking can do to ge…

> It's also amazing what networking can do to get around many processes that people normally go through which kinda shows how worthless they are. So many times I've been told something that would take weeks or months ended up taking days or hours because I knew someone who could put me on "the rush list" which typically bypassed much of what was required in the first place.

Thus perfectly illustrating the concept of privilege.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#18
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list was a list of jobs that people self declared as useless, not which Graeber decided were useless.

Are you sure? In the article it looks like it's a direct quote from Graeber.

Yes, if you read the original bullshit jobs article it is clearer.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#19
post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

When most people say "bullshit job", it seems to me like they really mean "job that could be solved by a well-built machine". Farming used to be a bullshit job until we built gigantic combines and automated watering systems and agricultural data storage systems, and now our farming problems are electronic, not logistic. (except for water, but that's another story.)

So for the example of an actuary, ideally their job would also be automated by an advanced program. Not an impossibly advanced one, mind you - it certainly would not have to be smarter than even the 50th percentile of programs out there today. If we took every actuary working 9 to 5, and instead threw all of their tens of thousands of daily working hours at coding a program to do their job, how soon do you think we could automate an entire industry?

This extends to all jobs, eventually. You are seeing it happen today, with farming. Tomorrow, we will see taxi and Lyft drivers replaced with self driving cars, and mail/package delivery given entirely to robots and drones.

The moral of the story is we should automate jobs that people don't like doing.

I don't appreciate the fact that you run so far away with this doomsday scenario of "no insurance means we all get sick and die". Try to focus on the discussion the article wants us to have, not on the side-scenario that you want to use to rationalize actuaries or other poorly optimized vocations.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#20
post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

I expect he wants the world to change more fundamentally than that - per your example, if you have a good state-provided health service then the health insurance question is simply no longer an issue. There are of course countries that do this already. I think motor insurance would be a more difficult one to do away with - the question being if people didn't have to pay for any accidents they caused (via insurance pr…

Single payer still acts as an insurer and needs actuaries (even if they're not called that) to figure out which procedures make sense with their limited resources.
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