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Sabbath mode

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Re: Sabbath mode

#41

Post by matt_morgan »

MichaelAza wrote: post #17
freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

I'm a non-observant Jew and have several observant friends. I always joke with them that Jews are the first hackers, finding ways to circumvent their own religious laws. Some other clever hacks "exploited" by Jews over the years: * Say a door needs to be opened by a button. For some reason which I can't quite remember right now, you can't just press the button to open the door, but say that after you press the button…

My favorite is Eruv[1], which in my neighborhood and others in NYC is tiny thin wires strung between streetlights to "enclose" a neighborhood.

In some of our big storms recently many of the wires have come down, limiting people's mobility.

To call all this hackery "circumvention" is not accurate ... one way or another, in building & using tricks to live with them, you are being "observant," by remembering and practicing the rules. Remembrance being a key part of faith.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv

Re: Sabbath mode

#43

Post by _pius »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #34
Shalomm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To extend on parent comment: What you call "circumvent your religion's practices", ie building complicated logical arguments or creating new categories and distinctions to re-interpret existing law is considered as a significant part of Jewish religion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud#Pilpul In that aspect, Judaism is very different from, say, Christianity.

Well (and I hate reply spamming here but I keep thinking of new things) The Talmud and Mishnah were written hundreds of years after the birth of Jesus. And in the first century, the Pharisees (or proto-Rabbinics, or whatever) were only one sect amongst many. So yes, Christianity followed on a different path than Judaism.

I hate reply spamming here but I keep thinking of new things

Just as a heads up, you can edit your comments within a certain window of time.

Re: Sabbath mode

#44

Post by gweinberg »

judah wrote: post #7
freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

Disclaimer: I'm Jewish and religious, but not Orthodox; I don't worry about sabbath mode as I have no problem turning on an oven during shabbat; it's not work. That said, if you ask Orthodox Jews, they will say it's not circumventing the laws about shabbat. Rather, it's keeping the laws of shabbat -- avoiding all forms of work -- while still living in the modern world. To circumvent the law would be to find a way tha…

Well, maybe. I don't understand the argument that you are "doing work" when a light automatically comes on for you in the first place. I can see arguing that opening a refrigerator is work, or that it isn't, but I can't see coming to a different conclusion if a light comes on when you open it. I would have made a crappy rabbi.

Re: Sabbath mode

#45

Post by darklajid »

reuven wrote: post #15
freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. For example: Jews aren't allowed to eat leavened food, known as "chamets," (e.g., bread) on Passover. We're also not allowed to own leavened products. What do you do with all of the food that you bought before Passover? In theory, you have to throw it out, which would be a huge waste of money. The solution is to sell th…

This, by the way, is a huge problem for a German expat in IL (back in DE now) during Passover.

Not only do they hide bread, there's a certain golden drink that is just as off limits in all the 'following' supermarkets and that's quite interesting.

(I kid. Yes, you don't get bread and beer, in theory. Tel Aviv has lots of shops that aren't Jewish or don't care or .. so it's mostly a sight to be seen and a way to explore the city, looking for more accommodating places..)

Re: Sabbath mode

#46

Post by darklajid »

freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

My entirely useless and anecdotal meeting with Jewish people lead me to believe that this is really mostly a 'pick your parts'.. :)

Like, 'Seafood is really okay, I eat that. Pork? No way'. Or 'I don't care about Shabbat all that much, but try to avoid grain based stuff during Passover' etc. etc.

The situation is more complicated off course, because I still haven't figured out if I read 'Jewish' as a nation, religion, culture, mixture of two or three? Being raised in a somewhat Christian (sort of - my parents don't care about religion) environment I never felt confused about that one ("Religion", in my book) and I tend to lump everyone Muslim into that same category. Different religion, but .. religion. Jews? No Jew was able to explain to me how it all fits together.

So .. I'd bet that there are quite a number of people following (a hand-picked number of) Jewish traditions who wouldn't count as religious if you talk to them about God (or if one exists) and attending services or somesuch things.

Re: Sabbath mode

#47

Post by darklajid »

MichaelAza wrote: post #17
freehunter wrote: post #3

Clever hack, but if you're coming up with ways to circumvent your religion's practices, are you really still practicing your religion?

I'm a non-observant Jew and have several observant friends. I always joke with them that Jews are the first hackers, finding ways to circumvent their own religious laws. Some other clever hacks "exploited" by Jews over the years: * Say a door needs to be opened by a button. For some reason which I can't quite remember right now, you can't just press the button to open the door, but say that after you press the button…

This also leads to incredibly interesting (or funny) situations. A coworker of mine uses a simple/trivial timer, plugs it in the power outlet and therefor predetermines some things that Should Happen on Shabbat.

Now, if there's a brown-out for say 3h and you're not allowed to interact with that thing until Shabbat is over, you .. get interesting side effects and have to reschedule the daily life.

Re: Sabbath mode

#48

Post by krebby »

gweinberg wrote: post #44
judah wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm Jewish and religious, but not Orthodox; I don't worry about sabbath mode as I have no problem turning on an oven during shabbat; it's not work. That said, if you ask Orthodox Jews, they will say it's not circumventing the laws about shabbat. Rather, it's keeping the laws of shabbat -- avoiding all forms of work -- while still living in the modern world. To circumvent the law would be to find a way tha…

Well, maybe. I don't understand the argument that you are "doing work" when a light automatically comes on for you in the first place. I can see arguing that opening a refrigerator is work, or that it isn't, but I can't see coming to a different conclusion if a light comes on when you open it. I would have made a crappy rabbi.

The act of turning on an oven or opening a refrigerator isn't "doing work", but igniting a fire (and by extension completing a circuit) is.

Re: Sabbath mode

#49

Post by ScottBurson »

gweinberg wrote: post #44
judah wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm Jewish and religious, but not Orthodox; I don't worry about sabbath mode as I have no problem turning on an oven during shabbat; it's not work. That said, if you ask Orthodox Jews, they will say it's not circumventing the laws about shabbat. Rather, it's keeping the laws of shabbat -- avoiding all forms of work -- while still living in the modern world. To circumvent the law would be to find a way tha…

Well, maybe. I don't understand the argument that you are "doing work" when a light automatically comes on for you in the first place. I can see arguing that opening a refrigerator is work, or that it isn't, but I can't see coming to a different conclusion if a light comes on when you open it. I would have made a crappy rabbi.

> I would have made a crappy rabbi.

Me too. When someone asked me whether such-and-so was work, I would have just said, "Use your judgment. If it feels like work, it's work."

Re: Sabbath mode

#50

Post by reuven »

matt_morgan wrote: post #41
MichaelAza wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a non-observant Jew and have several observant friends. I always joke with them that Jews are the first hackers, finding ways to circumvent their own religious laws. Some other clever hacks "exploited" by Jews over the years: * Say a door needs to be opened by a button. For some reason which I can't quite remember right now, you can't just press the button to open the door, but say that after you press the button…

My favorite is Eruv[1], which in my neighborhood and others in NYC is tiny thin wires strung between streetlights to "enclose" a neighborhood. In some of our big storms recently many of the wires have come down, limiting people's mobility. To call all this hackery "circumvention" is not accurate ... one way or another, in building & using tricks to live with them, you are being "observant," by remembering and practic…

My take on eruv is that it's one of several elements in Jewish law designed to create and foster communities. Community is crucial to Jewish survival. So among other things:

- You need 10 adults to have many important prayer services

- You need to eat kosher food -- which is only feasible when there's a critical mass of other Jews around

- Women need to go to a ritual bath once a month; it's only feasible to have such a ritual bath if you live near other Jews who help to fund it

- You can't carry on the Sabbath unless you have an eruv around your community, in which case you can carry within the community.

These, together with other rules, have the effect of encouraging Jews to live near other Jews, which helps to strengthen the community more and perpetuate the tradition. I think that much of Jewish law is aimed at this underlying goal. When a rule conflicts with this goal, it's considered desirable to find a way around the rule, such that the community's centrality and strength win out.

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