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Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

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Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#11

Post by josefresco »

"As former NSA Director Michael Hayden recently put it, "[L]et me be really clear. NSA doesn't just listen to bad people. NSA listens to interesting people. People who are communicating information."

Isn't this the correct approach? In a perfect world the NSA would only need to "listen" to criminals outside the US, but the world isn't perfect and adversaries don't play by the rules.

Shouldn't this be a triumph of technology that can tell the difference between Johnny-High-Schooler researching the middle east, and a radicalized potential terrorist?

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#12

Post by bediger4000 »

LLWM wrote: post #8
mikegioia wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unbelievable to me, too. It basically means the government can both violate the Constitution and absolve itself for the reason of "national security". To think how that would have gone over in the 18th century!

Of course it can. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/president-lincoln...

Lincoln was president in the 19th century. Washington, Adams, etc, were the 18th century presidents.

And my money is on Washington and Jefferson spinning in their graves every time "national security" is used to squash a court case.

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#13

Post by bediger4000 »

josefresco wrote: post #11

"As former NSA Director Michael Hayden recently put it, "[L]et me be really clear. NSA doesn't just listen to bad people. NSA listens to interesting people. People who are communicating information." Isn't this the correct approach? In a perfect world the NSA would only need to "listen" to criminals outside the US, but the world isn't perfect and adversaries don't play by the rules. Shouldn't this be a triumph of tec…

Very good! Nice approach to the Poe's Law limit on detectable sarcasm.

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#14

Post by sp332 »

LLWM wrote: post #8
mikegioia wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unbelievable to me, too. It basically means the government can both violate the Constitution and absolve itself for the reason of "national security". To think how that would have gone over in the 18th century!

Of course it can. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/president-lincoln...

Both of those court cases said it can't.

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#15

Post by sp332 »

josefresco wrote: post #11

"As former NSA Director Michael Hayden recently put it, "[L]et me be really clear. NSA doesn't just listen to bad people. NSA listens to interesting people. People who are communicating information." Isn't this the correct approach? In a perfect world the NSA would only need to "listen" to criminals outside the US, but the world isn't perfect and adversaries don't play by the rules. Shouldn't this be a triumph of tec…

Actually, they're recording every cell phone call in Afghanistan and the Bahamas. Not just "interesting people".

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#16

Post by btilly »

bnejad wrote: post #3

"A federal court in San Francisco sided with the U.S. Department of Justice, ruling that the plaintiffs could not win a significant portion of the case—a Fourth Amendment challenge to the NSA’s tapping of the Internet backbone—without disclosure of classified information that would harm national security. In other words, Judge Jeffrey White found that “state secrets” can trump the judicial process and held that EFF’s…

Indeed the very first case that established this right for the government is seen by many as an example of the privilege being abused.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Reynolds for the story.

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#17

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

bediger4000 wrote: post #12
LLWM wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it can. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/president-lincoln...

Lincoln was president in the 19th century. Washington, Adams, etc, were the 18th century presidents. And my money is on Washington and Jefferson spinning in their graves every time "national security" is used to squash a court case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#18

Post by nullc »

josefresco wrote: post #11

"As former NSA Director Michael Hayden recently put it, "[L]et me be really clear. NSA doesn't just listen to bad people. NSA listens to interesting people. People who are communicating information." Isn't this the correct approach? In a perfect world the NSA would only need to "listen" to criminals outside the US, but the world isn't perfect and adversaries don't play by the rules. Shouldn't this be a triumph of tec…

Yea, well they could stop a lot more terrorism if they just shot everyone in the head they suspected was a terrorist or interacted with anyone they suspected was a terrorist.

Criminals don't play by the rules, you know.

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#19

Post by rayiner »

rfrank wrote: post #9
mikegioia wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unbelievable to me, too. It basically means the government can both violate the Constitution and absolve itself for the reason of "national security". To think how that would have gone over in the 18th century!

Frustrating as well because supporters of the programs like to bring up how they've been challenged in court before so they're perfectly fine and legal. Well, not exactly...

Who says the specific programs have been challenged in court? The argument is that they rest on principles that have been set forth in previous Supreme Court opinions.

Look at the EFF's handy image: https://www.eff.org/files/2015/03/19/backbone-2015-color.jpg.

Do you see the box labeled "filtering aimed at eliminating fully domestic transactions"? That's there because precedent says the 4th amendment does not protect things crossing the border. So the crux of the case is showing that the unconstitutional part happens in the first box--when the data is first copied.

In my opinion, none of it is protected once it's on the backbone. If hundreds of AT&T or Verizon engineers can access a data stream, it's not "private." But I also think the question should be litigated in court.

Re: Important Allies Join the Fight Against NSA Internet Backbone Surveillance

#20

Post by tedunangst »

bediger4000 wrote: post #12
LLWM wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it can. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/president-lincoln...

Lincoln was president in the 19th century. Washington, Adams, etc, were the 18th century presidents. And my money is on Washington and Jefferson spinning in their graves every time "national security" is used to squash a court case.

Eh, "national security" was basically the rationale for replacing the Articles of Confederation, so...
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