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HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

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Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#141

Post by joshstrange »

NathanKP wrote: post #89
joshstrange wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are quite a large number of people who still have to support Also the whole SEO issues are not something the sneeze at. I've yet to see a comprehensive approach to this that doesn't involve phantomjs running to serve up HTML to search engine bots. Maybe the bots will just get smarter and we won't have to worry about it but the jury is still out on that. Luckity once I get to stop supporting IE9 I can go to sing…

Yeah I agree the SEO issues. Anything that is dependent on search traffic should not be a single page app, as it will hurt your ranking greatly. Google actually runs JS these days, but you'll still get penalized for slow speed if you load all the content in via JS instead of just serving a flat HTML page to the bot. And that's not even considering Bing and other web bots that almost certainly do not have JS running c…

I agree 100% and as soon as my company stops supporting IE9 I will be pushing for using pushState and more single-page app-ness.

Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#142

Post by tmzt »

frik wrote: post #106
jerf wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not able to substantiate this with links, but I believe the idea was that the "XML" in question was going to be XHTML most likely, rather than generic "XML", though it did support the generic XML use case. I could be wrong, if the original Outlook web interface this was supported for really did return XML that was not XHTML at some point. It was a crazy time. XHTML was still "inevitable", and people were pretty s…

Wrong. It was called "XMLHTTP", created by Microsoft for Outlook Web Access 2000. Mozilla implemented it as XMLHttpRequest JavaScript object in Gecko. The main reason of XHR/AJAX was XML, but Text and HTML are supported too. See Wikipedia for the correct history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest Microsoft never implemented the XHTML standards in Internet Explorer. IE cannot open files with .xhtml file exte…

Any idea what the MSDN tree view used in the 1998 timeframe? I know it loaded the contents on demand when you expand3d a node and I remember it doing so using an automation object with CreateObject.

Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#144

Post by Someone1234 »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #126
Someone1234 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Strictness accomplishes nothing whatsoever. Sure it does, it means it is impossible to mix logic or styling into your HTML inline. That makes HTML more maintainable and teaching it easier (less is always easier to teach than more). What semantic elements are you worried about them abusing? I cannot think of a semantic element which replaces defunct presentational elements without any CSS (which would makes the enti…

em and strong would be removed in a strict HTML5 standard. All stylised elements would. Span wouldn't as span doesn't impose styling directly.

Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#145

Post by timepiece »

Stormcaller wrote: post #139
timepiece wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't speak ill of people with or infatuation as HN is built on these tags. At the time of writing this comment, there's around 300 tags on the page and over 100 ones So, basically watch what you say buddy :)

, I don't think there's an excuse. we know for sure that it is not out of incompetence but it was probably easier to write at the time and nobody bothered to fix it because it doesn't really matter. For the , it is probably not the case here as this is just a text based site but sometimes it is easier to center an image by that tag when your site is partitioned in many margins it is not as easy to center some stuff,…

Not many but they're deprecated/obsolete for a reason, don't you think?

Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#146

Post by Someone1234 »

emodendroket wrote: post #124
astine wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would make parsers and generators much easier to write.

But there are millions of pages that will never be updated and if a browser can't render them people are going to blame the browser, not the use of deprecated HTML elements (an issue they won't even have awareness of).

That's just a generic argument for no new HTML ever.

Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#147

Post by dragonwriter »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #71
Someone1234 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish strict XHTML was taken more seriously. HTML is the structure, CSS is the look, and JavaScript is the logic. With a strict XHTML style you can further enforce this by removing former standards which don't follow that design (e.g. OnClick="" etc). HTML5 is alright, but I'd like to see a strict HTML5 which bans a ton of classic HTML4.1 elements completely and also follows XHTML's much more logical style (and bans…

Strictness accomplishes nothing whatsoever. If you remove presentational elements, people just abuse semantic elements.

Strictly speaking, HTML5 did eliminate all presentational elements; formerly presentation HTML4.1 elements retained in HTML5 were redefined as semantic elements.

Many elements (even ones that were always, even before HTML5, semantic rather than presentational, e.g., ...) have common default presentation effects in most browsers, but that doesn't make them any less semantic.

I suppose you could strictly separating presentation from semantic by requiring conforming user-agents to apply no styling differences to any element other than that that provided by CSS (e.g., every element would have the same default presentation.) But its debatable whether that gets you anything useful other than purity for the sake of abstract theory.

Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#148

Post by FeloniousHam »

outsidetheparty wrote: post #77
jkoudys wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

XSLT is still good to learn -- I think it's conceptually sound, but its implementations are often terrible. I think the big pain points for most people are how finicky XML is in general, but also that any libs you use to generate your XML and translate it require an absurd amount of configuration. Years ago, I saw all the weaknesses in mixed PHP/html for building pages, but all the server-side templating languages lo…

Agreed re composition -- the sign that the language had finally 'clicked' was when you started seeing lots of little xsl:templates instead of one gigantic mass of if statements. I don't really agree that cruft or configuration difficulties were the problem, though. Verbose, sure, fine, but otherwise spare to a fault. I suspect it's more that it demanded understanding of fairly sophisticated coding concepts to be at a…

Count me among those reeling in disgust: XML is unpleasant to work with, XSLT just adds layers of complexity on top of that.

I wrote transforms for the few cases where I needed straight XML-to-XML conversions, but anything of complexity I retreated to a "real" language. It's obviously a personal choice, but I find working in XSL/XML like running through mud.

The success of JSON is due in part to the low signal-to-noise inherent in XML, and maybe XSL's low popularity is likely due to the necessary complexity of dealing with unnecessarily noisy data. I sometimes daydream about a present where YAML got there first.

Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#149

Post by copsarebastards »

These single-page apps are becoming pervasive but they are also fundamentally breaking the internet. Here are some common ways in which they are broken:

1. History is screwed up. You wanted a back button that took you back to the content you were looking at? Sucks to be you. The content you were looking at was dynamically loaded after ten different buttons you clicked, and now that the page is loaded fresh those button clicks are gone. Good luck finding it again. This especially goes for any of those infinite scroll websites: those should die.

2. Tabs don't work. Hey this link looks interesting, I'll open it in a new tab to look at later. Oh wait that was actually a JavaScript link and what often ends up happening is you end up with a blank page, or the same one page app loaded with it's initial content.

3. Save page doesn't work. You can save the page and pull it up and everything works because the JavaScript fetches the content. But there's one problem: I was saving that page to view on the bus where I have spotty internet if any. Sucks to be me.

4. Accessibility is broken. Oh, you're blind? Arthritic and have trouble using a mouse? Well, sorry, we had to size things in a certain way to make the animations work and tab order was too hard to get working, so I guess you can't use my website. Sucks to be you!

5. Security is broken. If you app loads content from a server that isn't yours, you can no longer verify security.

There are solutions to all of these problems but they're very difficult and 90% of one page apps don't solve these problems because they don't care.

I'm not against one page apps on principal, but a one page app standard that doesn't address these concerns is only going to make them worse. Unless we can solve these issues I'm against any one page app standard.

Re: HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without JavaScript

#150

Post by Mahn »

timepiece wrote: post #136
jkoudys wrote: post #53

This proposal is trying to take a common web design pattern, MVC, and make it part of the official spec. HTML is a _markup language_, it's ridiculous to use it as anything but a semantic language. Here's my HTML6 proposal: There’s a standard design pattern emerging via cascading style sheets, where content is styled directly via CSS. Everyone’s into it because the layout looks so much nicer. Since this is so common n…

Don't speak ill of people with or infatuation as HN is built on these tags. At the time of writing this comment, there's around 300 tags on the page and over 100 ones So, basically watch what you say buddy :)

Just clicked "view source" on this page out of curiosity. I feel like I just traveled back in time to 1996.
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