New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales • Hacker News Board

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#81

Post by DEinspanjer » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:19 PM UTC

I can understand why they would have needed to limit this bill to only the exclusive manufacturers of ZEV just to get it through legislation, but I'm curious whether it would allow the other manufacturers to spin off the ZEV portions of their businesses into subsidiaries and then be eligible to sell directly as well.

It is a very contentious subject, but some people argue that part of the reason the existing big manufactures don't put enough effort into making and offering ZEV is because they can't rely on the dealers to actually sell them. Reasons given for this is that the ZEV compete directly with the hybrid and gas vehicles on which the dealers have far greater inventory and profit margins, so they have little to no incentive to sell the ZEV.

If ZEV subsidiaries of the manufacturers could be guaranteed a chance to sell them then that might be cause for them to spend more effort on making them work.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#82

Post by rplnt » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:19 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #64

benmw333 wrote: post #53

Why only (4) stores? Why only "zero-emissions" vehicles? There should be zero limitations on direct to consumer sales for any manufacturer of any product.

[deleted]

I think you misunderstood the meaning of the sentence in this context. Not zero limitations of sale, but zero limitations on direct to consumer sales. I.e. there are limits, but you are not forced to go through middleman just because.

So even drugs or guns producers should be able to sell directly to customers as long as they meet all requirements.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#83

Post by bmelton » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:29 PM UTC

edvinbesic wrote: post #13

caw wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ban was created after Tesla started selling, and now it only lifted the ban for zero emission vehicles as far as I can tell (didn't read the whole bill). If Ford or GM wanted to sell direct, they couldn't. In the more generic case, states have these laws on the books to protect the local franchise dealers. These people buy cars from a particular manufacturer, usually multiple brands. In order to protect these dea…

"The ban was created after Tesla started selling, and now it only lifted the ban for zero emission vehicles as far as I can tell (didn't read the whole bill). If Ford or GM wanted to sell direct, they couldn't." Which is a damn shame. When shopping for a car every manufacturer currently has a 'build your own' tool online where you can build you car to spec and you get a rough estimate. However, in my experience, this…

> this estimate is never honored by dealers.

The "build your car" tools on the websites always represent the "as low as" price. It assumes all possible rebates, many of which you aren't eligible for. If you were a military veteran who recently graduated college with great credit and an account at a credit union with a pre-existing arrangement with that dealership, and are also trading in a same-brand car while trying to purchase a model with flagging sales, then tada, you can easily get the "as advertised" price.

Edit: this is incorrect. See replies.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#84

Post by retroencabulato » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:31 PM UTC

naskwo wrote: post #79

Suggestion: go to Amsterdam Schiphol. Take a Tesla Model S to the city. Then make up your mind about the "Apple of cars". The consensus in NL is that you're better off with a Porsche Panamera than a Tesla, most likely with a less painful (although still painful) amortisation. Certainly, if you're taller than 180cm, drive before you buy into the hype.

Can you speak for an entire country?

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#85

Post by ctdonath » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:41 PM UTC

damon_c wrote: post #70

millzlane wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone care what I buy with my own money and how I spend my free time if I don't harm others?

I'm concerned that your machine guns have the potential to harm others. The rest though, by all means...

I'm concerned that too often "potential to harm" is prioritized over with "actual harm is extremely rare, much less so than many things you're not worried about" and "sometimes harm is required to stop someone from causing more harm".

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#86

Post by SilasX » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:43 PM UTC

hurin wrote: post #77

winter_blue wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, no extra money will flow from NJ to California. Consumers will pay less for their cars, and the extra $1000-$2000 dealerships make on each car, will remain in the consumer's pocket. This is better on the whole. Dealerships are market inefficiencies, as they create no real value or "wealth"[1]. They give nothing to consumers in return for the $1-$2k extra that consumers pay for each car. [1] As defined by Pa…

> Dealerships are market inefficiencies, as they create no real value or "wealth"[1]. This is very surprising complaint to hear - the whole capitalist economy is filled with inefficiencies! (and Paul Graham is hardly saying something novel here).

The GP wasn't saying that all middlemen add inefficiencies or destroy value, only that these particular ones do since you're forced to use them regardless of need.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#87

Post by jbooth » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:43 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #85

damon_c wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm concerned that your machine guns have the potential to harm others. The rest though, by all means...

I'm concerned that too often "potential to harm" is prioritized over with "actual harm is extremely rare, much less so than many things you're not worried about" and "sometimes harm is required to stop someone from causing more harm".

I'm pro gun rights, but if I could, I'd specifically outlaw sales of guns to anybody who's buying it based on a fantasy of taking out an active shooter.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#88

Post by ctdonath » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:46 PM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #60

amalcon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your explanation doesn't really make sense. Consider: who would benefit most from the removal of these laws? The obvious answer is the General Motors Corporation. They could own their own dealerships, getting better control of customer experience and a bigger cut of the profits. It's not like they're short on capital such that they would be forced to franchise anyway. As the largest automaker in the world for most of…

I think the ban on self-service fueling is a great idea and I wish more states (beyond Oregon) would do it.

I'm baffled that anyone would think that's a great idea. Compelling drivers to pay someone to do something that nearly all drivers have no problem doing themselves seems absurd. Please explain your reasoning.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#89

Post by pavlov » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:56 PM UTC

jaxbot wrote: post #47

bko wrote: post #18

This is great news. People often forget that dealerships often abuse their power and take advantage of consumers. This is especially true since purchasing a car is a large purchase with information asymmetry (although new resources have made this less true). It's especially appalling how dealerships often discriminate on race and gender [0] I am disappointed that this move only applies to zero-emission vehicles but h…

On the other hand, this could be an incentive to purchase zero-emission vehicles instead of the alternatives, as the buying experience would be theoretically much better than that of going to a traditional dealer.

Yes. It's like visiting the websites of two competing software vendors. One has a plain-as-day pricing table with a $100 / month plan and a big blue "Buy now" button. The other company's Pricing page just reads: "Call us for a quote". Given the choice, who would ever go with the company that makes you talk to an enterprise salesman?

Somehow car dealers in the U.S. have managed to enshrine this sleazy sales model into state laws, which is certainly an amazing feat of lobbying.

Re: New Jersey legalizes direct Tesla sales

#90

Post by andrewtbham » Thu, Mar 19, 2015, 3:56 PM UTC

benmw333 wrote: post #53

Why only (4) stores? Why only "zero-emissions" vehicles? There should be zero limitations on direct to consumer sales for any manufacturer of any product.

because the dealership's concern is not Tesla, whom they consider a niche player. Their concern is their manufacturers GM, Toyota, Ford will set up their own stores and compete with and undercut them. The dealerships have poured a lot of resources into their dealerships over the years and it is an anti-trust issue for them to compete directly with the much more powerfule manufacturers.