Question: If spotify isn't a good deal for indy artist, why don't they all abandon the platform and use an alternative? Like Bandcamp, which you mentioned pays 8x. Come on artists, I dare you to?! :) Or are you afraid of subverting the dominant paradigm?
Why Spotify Pays So Little
271–280 of 305 posts
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed that having fans play your music on mute would be just as - if not more - effective, and would work without creating a prime target for banning. But I think in this case it made for a very effective "statement", even if it could've been a more efficient hack.
At least for the desktop software, they detect if you turn the volume down quickly, and pause the commercial. Spotify has pretty rude behavior towards their free users, but I suppose they want to push everyone to subscribe.
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#273Am I the only one here who is tired by artist complaining that we don't sufficiently support their preferred lifestyle? Also, the whole argument is straw-man, read what "pjc50" wrote.
No, it's completely irrelevant. This is a discussion about a pricing model, not about an artists' lifestyle. Unless you want to think of the choices of artists whether to distribute on Spotify or not, depending on the pricing model, to be a 'lifestyle'.
As for what pjc50 wrote, no, he didn't quite get the point of the article.
Yes, perhaps the most equitable way to charge is for artists to set a price for 1 stream, or 1 permanent download (iTunes).
But the Copyright holders are NOT being paid 'per-play'. Sure, they're paid more when the plays go up, but that's not necessarily indicative or a 'per play' model. Just like your gas station doesn't sell gas 'per mile' you drive, yet if you drive an extra mile you obviously pay more at the gas station than if you didn't drive that mile.
Spotify is not a pay per play model for copyright holders. It's a pay-by-share model. This means that if 10 people are subscribed, and they all play two songs 10 times, the copyright holder gets as much money as when these 10 people played both songs 100 times each.
Both songs get 50% of the artist revenue each, in both cases, which is 70% of 10x $10 subscriptions worth, which is $35 each per song, whether both are played once, or 10 times, or 100 times, no difference.
Obviously NOT pay-per-play but pay-by-share.
If it was pay-per-play then there'd be an actual difference in the songs' revenue if both songs were played 10 times or 100 times. Not the case with Spotify.
Now, this is what the article is about:
There are multiple (here just 2) ways to implement pay-by-share.
1) You total up ALL plays on Spotify, and ALL revenue. So say you have $1m of subscription revenue, and 1 million song plays in total. You then pay out artists the fraction of their plays. Got 10 plays? 10 plays / 10m total plays * 1m revenue = $1, that's your revenue.
2) PER USER, you total all the user plays, and take the $10 subscription, and then pay out the artists as a fraction of how much the artist listened to that particular user. Artist got 30 plays, user played songs 100 times? You take 30 user-plays / 100 user-plays * $10 = $3, that's the artist's revenue.
Is there a difference? The assumption is yes.
The assumption is that some music, like classical music, gets fewer average plays by classical music lovers, than an average pop song. i.e. a classic music lover might listen intently to a 15 minute song, and then another, and have 30 minutes of music, and generate 2 plays.
And a pop song that's 3 minutes long, will get played 5x in that 15 minute period. And instead of 30 minutes of conscious listening, it'll be on in the background for hours and hours as it's made for radio. So you get 4 hours of 3 minute songs, that's 80 plays.
Now say there's 1 pop lover, and 1 classic music lover. And say both categories have 2 artists that get listened equally.
In model 1, you'd have 1 classic music lover listening to 2 classic artists and generate 2x 2 plays per day = 4 plays. And the pop lover generates 2x 80 plays is 160 plays, for a total of 164 plays. The two music lovers both pay $10, so you get $20, and the two pop artists both take home their 80 play share out of a total of 164 plays on $20, or: $9.75. The classic music artists take home 2 plays / 164 total plays * $20 each = 24c.
In this model 1, we see that the classic music lover that pay $10, is subsidizing the pop artists with a huge fraction of his $10, despite the fact he only listens to classical music.
But in pricing model 2, the two classic artists would each get 50% of the share of the classic music lover: $5. And the pop artists would both get $5, too. Only there'd still be more pop song lovers, so they'd still make a ton more money because which is fine, as again there are more pop song lovers. But then there'd also be more pop artists, so there'd be more competition.
Neither models are pay-per-play. They're both pay-per-share. But in model two, the classic music lover who plays 0 pop music, is paying 0% of his money to pop songs. While in model 1, over 90% of his money goes to pop songs which is being called a subsidy for songs that are shorter, more culturally fit to play as background music/noise.
In model 2, obscure, less popular, longer songs, songs with fewer average plays etc, get a decent bit of revenue, because they compete for revenue shares of users who listen to other like minded music, and thus they compete against other obscure, less popular (in absolute numbers), longer songs, songs with fewer average plays etc.
I think it's clearly a more fair approach. And I think it's clear it has nothing to do with 'preferred lifestyle', and the argument is certainly no straw hat.
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#274Like others in this thread, I naively assumed this was how Spotify already worked, and wondered why the payouts tended to be so low. Now it makes sense, and puts the numbers here ( http://www.spotifyartists.com/spotify-explained/ ) in context. Realistically, it would be both hard to change structurally and a hard sell for major labels to give up what is effectively a subsidy of popular music by indie fans. Let’s take…
http://help.grooveshark.com/customer/portal/articles/669416-...
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
Implementation and adoption are part of the complexity of a solution, in my book at least. I assume those who do not consider implementation and adoption part of the complexity have either come up with genuinely simple solutions to problems or never had to complete those portions of the task when they were not simple.
Implementation is one paragraph of SQL or statistical code, given access to the data set and a few minutes to execute. This change in how revenue per song is calculated is truly simple. The only hard part is convincing people it's better. Adoption has nothing at all to do with complexity. Be careful you're not moving the goalposts. Bill gates giving me a billion dollars to screw around with is extremely simple, and a…
It is not moving goal posts its considering whether the 'solution' will actually work given circumstances outside the technical feasibility.
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#276https://www.change.org/p/spotify-ltd-pay-artists-from-the-pe...
Suggestions for improvements welcome.
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting. I'm sure people are doing this illegally, but technically you're supposed to buy a commercial Spotify license for public performance.
"Spotify Free, Unlimited, and Premium accounts are for personal, non-commercial use only." I can't imagine it's being done illegally regularly. It would be way to easy to identify by stream behavior.
I think it depends on local copyright laws, but I think in most places you buy a license to play music publicly and with that license you are allowed to play any music legally acquired.
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
I doubt it. The business overhead of distributing payment this way is enormous. Right now, Spotify just runs a report that takes some top level numbers, splits them out by copyright owner and divides a single pool of money. This means they manage only as many pools of money as they have copyright owners. If they start doing it the way OP suggests, they DRAMATICALLY increase the number of pools of money they manage (a…
They likely already record and store all the necessary data (and more) in order to build out people's listener profiles. Pools of money is not really a relevant metric. They collect all the subscription premiums and pay a portion of them out according to their contractual agreements. Pay(artist_i) = 0.7 * sum_j [ premium(viever_j) * ratio_ji ] is not that much harder to do. I agree that auditing would be more complic…
But yeah, there are many reasons its not calculated this way. Revenue predictability is another reason - companies like to be able to forecast revenue and that's hard if revenue has only a tenuous link to the other KPIs you use to run your business (which is the point you made).
Honestly, the current payout scheme makes more sense. Is it totally fair to the labels? Maybe not; but the labels it's most unfair to aren't making enough under either scenario for it to matter much. Would it really matter to an indie label if their monthly payout was $20 instead of $5? Once you get bigger than a few hundred listeners, the law of large numbers kicks in.
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but at worst bars and venues like this end up paying the flat fee to the recording cartels to basically have unlimited plays of whatever they want and none of that really goes to the artists in any significant way. And in most cases, it doesn't really come up until they're audited at least once, which might be never.
I know that calling them recording cartels is making a certain point, but the licensing companies in the US are ASCAP and BMI and they don't really have anything to do with actually recording music. They collect royalties on behalf of the artists. I happen to know because I was once in a band and the only money I really ever received for our recordings after the label advance was from ASCAP. Even years later I get a…
Re: Why Spotify Pays So Little
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed, but a business that plays spotify likely plays it for the entire time said business is open. Very few individual users will listen to spotify for 15 hours a day like a business (bar) that plays spotify would. [Edit] just read the earlier sibling comment. I'm informing my theory based on my own very occasional usage of spotify. I suspect I'm in the long tail of their business, and I would imagine that the aggr…
The problem is it's all speculation. We don't have any hard numbers to tell us how any given revenue split policy would affect payouts to different artists. My instinct (and I'm the Co-Founder of a streaming service that does revenue share FWIW) is that the reason so little is paid is because there are just a lot of streams period, and changing the algorithm around to try to make it "more fair" might shift the distri…