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Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

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Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#61

The general case here is: don't lie to federal agents. The easiest way to do that is to stay silent and demand a lawyer. But understand: if you're on the periphery of an investigation, you're running a chance of raising a red flag. It's well within your rights, and ultimately you can't incriminate yourself by being silent. But you could substantially add delay, frustration, and lawyer costs to the whole experience. A…

Another way to not lie is to speak the truth.

No, absolutely not. Even if you tell the whole truth as you know it, it can still get you into trouble. Maybe they have another eyewitness that remembers things differently than you do. Maybe they have an eyewitness whose account agrees with yours, but the LEOs themselves misunderstood or misheard or forgot something. The police are going to think you lied. Maybe you just honestly misremembered something. Nope, that's a "lie".

There are so many ways that you telling the truth can hurt you, and basically no ways in which talking can help you, that it's not worth the risk. Law enforcement does provide a useful benefit to society in general, but there is zero reward for helping the cops, and a lot of risk that you could land yourself in hot water for something that seems completely innocuous.

In the specific example from the blog post, there's no reason to lie--taking that call was not illegal, so there's no reason to lie.

The psychology of the situation is not to your advantage. The LEOs are trying to get you to lie. They know how to do this. I'm not saying you're powerless to withstand them, but the example in the blog post is just an example. They can and will use much more sophisticated tactics to catch you in a lie if they think it will help them.

And even in this example, what if you do tell the truth, and say you did talk to them about it? Then they're going to ask what you talked about with your friend, and maybe you don't quite remember it exactly how they do. That's "lying" in their book. It also opens you up to further questioning in general, and just when you're feeling comfortable talking to you, they'll ask you something somewhat ambiguous that causes you to lie, even unintentionally.

It's just not worth it. When law enforcement comes knocking with questions, they are not there to help you. At absolute best, it's a neutral encounter, but it's very easy for it to go against your best interests.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#62

> The lesson — other than that criminal justice often has little to do with actual justice — is this: for God's sake shut up . Law enforcement agents seeking to interview you are not your friends. You cannot count on "just clearing this one thing up." Demand to talk to a lawyer before talking to the cops. Every time. This is a very good reminder, and everything he says is both important and true. Unfortunately, it's…

What's more offensive is if you get caught with that pot in ny, it will essentially get dismissed as long as you have money and get a real lawyer, not a public defender.

Read this discussion of the so-called right to a speedy trial in nyc in practice: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/nyregion/justice-denied-fo...

tl;dr: misdemeanor cases, despite your supposed right to a speedy trial, regularly drag out over years. If your lawyer understands how to work the system, misdemeanors appear to largely just go away because the court system is simply incapable of dealing with them within the bounds of the law.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#63

> The lesson — other than that criminal justice often has little to do with actual justice — is this: for God's sake shut up . Law enforcement agents seeking to interview you are not your friends. You cannot count on "just clearing this one thing up." Demand to talk to a lawyer before talking to the cops. Every time. This is a very good reminder, and everything he says is both important and true. Unfortunately, it's…

I feel like at some point in time, entrapment was frowned upon... Unfortunately it's this behavior that reinforces - not helps fix - the often maligned urban/minority fear of ever helping the police in any way ever. Does the entire neighborhood know who committed crimes X? Yes. Will anyone ever talk to the police? Na.

If you read the ferguson report -- and I can't do it justice -- the police were systematically used to assault black people, and use them as a cash source to fund local government. Meanwhile, white people skated on the same charges. I can't do the report justice, but it's utterly appalling. And while white people might not know what is going on, trust me, black people damn sure do. To say the least, this does not improve cooperation with the police.

   One should understand that the Justice Department did not simply find 
   indirect evidence of unintentionally racist practices which harm black 
   people, but "discriminatory intent”—that is to say willful racism aimed to 
   generate cash. Justice in Ferguson is not a matter of "racism without 
   racists," but racism with racists so secure, so proud, so brazen that they 
   used their government emails to flaunt it. [1]

[1] http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/The-Gang...

[2] http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/04/us/ferguson-po...

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#64

> The lesson — other than that criminal justice often has little to do with actual justice — is this: for God's sake shut up . Law enforcement agents seeking to interview you are not your friends. You cannot count on "just clearing this one thing up." Demand to talk to a lawyer before talking to the cops. Every time. This is a very good reminder, and everything he says is both important and true. Unfortunately, it's…

The saddest part of this is that not only do most people NOT know their rights, but they're dead certain that they know things to be true, that aren't.

I got into a debate on Quora in which the other party insisted that your right to silence couldn't be invoked until you were Mirandized, which is completely untrue.

I got into a different argument that insisted that it was illegal to deny cops some basic information, like your name, driver's license and address. That may be true in some instances, but isn't necessarily true everywhere.

Beyond all that, the worst argument is the one which asserts that by invoking your right to silence, even peaceably, the cops will likely harass you and/or find some other reason to arrest you. That argument is the worst because it's the most likely to be true.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#65
post #64

> The lesson — other than that criminal justice often has little to do with actual justice — is this: for God's sake shut up . Law enforcement agents seeking to interview you are not your friends. You cannot count on "just clearing this one thing up." Demand to talk to a lawyer before talking to the cops. Every time. This is a very good reminder, and everything he says is both important and true. Unfortunately, it's…

The saddest part of this is that not only do most people NOT know their rights, but they're dead certain that they know things to be true, that aren't. I got into a debate on Quora in which the other party insisted that your right to silence couldn't be invoked until you were Mirandized, which is completely untrue. I got into a different argument that insisted that it was illegal to deny cops some basic information,…

>Beyond all that, the worst argument is the one which asserts that by invoking your right to silence, even peaceably, the cops will likely harass you and/or find some other reason to arrest you. That argument is the worst because it's the most likely to be true.

Why is it worst by being likely true? It's probably not a good idea to immediately invoke the Fifth on a routine traffic stop, for instance, for exactly that reason. (It wouldn't cause them to arrest you, sure, but they'd look a lot harder for reasons to cite you that would otherwise "not be worth it".)

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#66
post #65
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saddest part of this is that not only do most people NOT know their rights, but they're dead certain that they know things to be true, that aren't. I got into a debate on Quora in which the other party insisted that your right to silence couldn't be invoked until you were Mirandized, which is completely untrue. I got into a different argument that insisted that it was illegal to deny cops some basic information,…

>Beyond all that, the worst argument is the one which asserts that by invoking your right to silence, even peaceably, the cops will likely harass you and/or find some other reason to arrest you. That argument is the worst because it's the most likely to be true. Why is it worst by being likely true? It's probably not a good idea to immediately invoke the Fifth on a routine traffic stop, for instance, for exactly that…

Because the cops don't have the right to detain you without suspicion of you having committed a crime, and (at least historically), invoking the fifth is not evidence of guilt.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#67

The only time I ever did this, it was a routine traffic stop and I was with my wife and my parents. The cop was asking me a bunch of questions about why I was driving so fast, and I just played it off like I didn't understand, just trying to say as little as possible. It was a bad tactic - it raised suspicion and I later learned that my mother thought I was actually holding drugs or something because I was being evas…

This is a good point though. What do you folks suggest for the standard traffic stop, along the lines of,

"Sir, do you know how fast you were going?"

Presumably both "yes" and "no" would be bad. (The former is obvious, and the latter could mean you're not paying sufficient attention, etc.) So, do you just stare at them in silence? Do you say something like, "I'd rather not answer," which while accurate, sure sounds like "yes". (At the very least, there goes your chance of a warning instead of a ticket...)[1]

I agree with serve_yay that many of these situations start off seeming innocuous, and staying silent is easier said than done.

Another example is the cops canvasing the area of a crime, looking for info. Do you just refuse to speak to them without a lawyer, even though you had nothing to do with it? It's certainly possible (albeit unlikely) that they actually have you as a suspect and are trying to trick you into some sort of false statement. (Or a statement that appears to be false because it conflicts with other evidence, even if it's true!) But in the vast majority of cases it'll be exactly what it seems. Or say you actually witnessed a crime. Or were the victim! Still lawyer up before talking to the cops? It appears the safest thing is, yes, always get a lawyer. But at some point on the spectrum, does the cost and inconvenience outweigh the insurance factor of doing so?

[1] I've only been in that situation a couple times, but I've tried my best to answer politely without saying anything material. One way to do that is to answer questions with questions. "Do you know how fast you were going?" "How fast was I going, Sir?"

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#68
post #66
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Beyond all that, the worst argument is the one which asserts that by invoking your right to silence, even peaceably, the cops will likely harass you and/or find some other reason to arrest you. That argument is the worst because it's the most likely to be true. Why is it worst by being likely true? It's probably not a good idea to immediately invoke the Fifth on a routine traffic stop, for instance, for exactly that…

Because the cops don't have the right to detain you without suspicion of you having committed a crime, and (at least historically), invoking the fifth is not evidence of guilt.

In that case, the cop is already detaining you on suspicion of wrongdoing, and they already have significant discretion in what to look at. Sure, when it gets to trial, "alright, maybe I wouldn't have bothered checking for weapons if he hadn't immediately invoked the fifth", and you get a gold plated legal victory.

Or you could be on your way in ten minutes and avoid the charade.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#69
post #2

Also very enlightening, and many probably already have watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc > Dont Talk to Cops > Mr. James Duane, a professor at Regent Law School and a former defense attorney, tells you why you should never agree to be interviewed by the police.

Thanks, but I'll continue to report crimes and assist canvassers looking for anyone who saw a suspect.

"But he obviously didn't mean that!" Then why the extreme repetition of "never"?

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