Live data from Hacker News

Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

popehat.com

21–30 of 216 posts

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#21
The general case here is: don't lie to federal agents. The easiest way to do that is to stay silent and demand a lawyer.

But understand: if you're on the periphery of an investigation, you're running a chance of raising a red flag. It's well within your rights, and ultimately you can't incriminate yourself by being silent. But you could substantially add delay, frustration, and lawyer costs to the whole experience.

Another way to not lie is to speak the truth. In the specific example from the blog post, there's no reason to lie--taking that call was not illegal, so there's no reason to lie.

My question is: how often to federal prosecutions go to trial based only on a false statement trap? I have no doubt that agents use it as a "cherry on top" of other charges, but I'm assuming most folks here are worried about surprise or "gotcha" prosecutions--not actually worried that their criminal ways will be exposed.

So how often do federal agents clear someone of any substantive wrongdoing, but still prosecute them based solely on a false statement trap? I would be surprised if it ever happens.

Edit: Downvotes but no answers are a bummer; I'm asking a question here.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#22
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many thousands of investigations is he personally involved in per year? I'd guess something on the order of 0.05.

Not to mention, I imagine they only play that card when it seems like they need to for one reason or another.

More likely they do something similar relatively often and only spring the trap if they feel it necessary.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#23
Read http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/... even if it's exaggerating, even if it's twisting the truth as some claim there are some frightening amount of felonies you can commit and because of that you can't ever presume you are innocent. But even if you are, as the wonderful video linked by lgierth shows you can be in trouble. Just don't talk to the police.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#24

> The lesson — other than that criminal justice often has little to do with actual justice — is this: for God's sake shut up . Law enforcement agents seeking to interview you are not your friends. You cannot count on "just clearing this one thing up." Demand to talk to a lawyer before talking to the cops. Every time. This is a very good reminder, and everything he says is both important and true. Unfortunately, it's…

I feel like at some point in time, entrapment was frowned upon...

Unfortunately it's this behavior that reinforces - not helps fix - the often maligned urban/minority fear of ever helping the police in any way ever. Does the entire neighborhood know who committed crimes X? Yes. Will anyone ever talk to the police?

Na.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#26
post #15

The only time I ever did this, it was a routine traffic stop and I was with my wife and my parents. The cop was asking me a bunch of questions about why I was driving so fast, and I just played it off like I didn't understand, just trying to say as little as possible. It was a bad tactic - it raised suspicion and I later learned that my mother thought I was actually holding drugs or something because I was being evas…

I've written that before on HN and got massively downmodded, hopefully that doesn't happen to you. If you are actually guilty then keep your mouth closed. But if you are not guilty then staying quiet is not necessarily to your benefit.

No, the whole point is that even what innocent people say can screw them later. And I agree with this!

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#27
post #3

> Hence, the government's chickenshit false statement trap works — even though the government agents set it up from the start. If you don't read Popehat, this might be the moment you realize it's a good idea to start. Very rarely do you see legal discussion detailed enough to be meaningful, while informal enough to hold your attention. Other discussions of note is the bizarre sentencing of Petraeus: https://www.popeh…

Also of note for those new to Pope Hat, Ken White is a former Federal Prosecutor. His perspective from both sides of federal law makes for some interesting posts.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#28

> The lesson — other than that criminal justice often has little to do with actual justice — is this: for God's sake shut up . Law enforcement agents seeking to interview you are not your friends. You cannot count on "just clearing this one thing up." Demand to talk to a lawyer before talking to the cops. Every time. This is a very good reminder, and everything he says is both important and true. Unfortunately, it's…

"the situation regarding border crossings and the TSA is more thorny"

Since the TSA is fishing on behalf of local cops' revenue raising operations more and more and the CIS has become the state's lever to repeal the Fourth, it seems like we need a lot more information about TSA and borders than how to say no to regular cops.

But I don't see much about it online. And the law seems unsettled, so it should be even more discussed.

In particular, Customs and TSA are more and more taking smartphones and laptops and using them and their stored passwords to get access to personal and business online data stores to plant long term monitoring and download personal data from all your customers. Immigration is asking me a lot more personal questions and apparently recording the answers whenever I cross the border.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#29
post #10

The question that I have every time I read about something similar to this is not about the law itself, but about the human who's applying the law: how/ why/ what is the line of thought that would lead them to (supposedly) knowingly do something like this? I realize that processes, bureaucracy and generally abstraction can allow people to do less than desirable behaviours, but I can't quite figure out which abstracti…

Put yourself in the shoes of a federal agent investigating a crime. Crimes happen all the time; they're commmitted by people who then try very hard to hide what they did.

So a criminal investigator is going to treat everyone they interview with suspicion from the start. That suspicion is not a personal failing any more than a software QA tester who doesn't trust the latest build. It's inherent in that type of job.

And investigators only have certain tools that they can use in order to find the criminals who are lying to them. If they get information the wrong way, even if it is accurate information about a real crime, it will be ruled inadmissable and the criminal will get away.

A big tool they have is relationships. If they can get one person in a criminal network to cooperate, then they can try to traverse the network and find the other criminals. Since criminals rarely want to cooperate with law enforcement, they use "gotcha" type tools to compel cooperation--like the false statement trap. They just need a little leverage on the person to get going.

Re: Reminder: Oh, Won't You Please Shut Up? (2011)

#30
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've written that before on HN and got massively downmodded, hopefully that doesn't happen to you. If you are actually guilty then keep your mouth closed. But if you are not guilty then staying quiet is not necessarily to your benefit.

Please read the article. Whether you're guilty or not, you can be made guilty on various other charges from a simple conversation.

But only if you lie during that conversation.

Edit: this is literally what happens in Ken's hypothetical story. If the subject didn't lie about the phone call, they couldn't be charged with a false statement.

Post reply on HN