i liked the article until it became feminist. the notion that because there are less women in industry recruiters cannot use a selection criterium that has intrinsically nothing to do with gender, however somehow guys score better on that criterium, doesn't sit well with me. like i'm evil and deserve less favourable treatment because i'm white and male.
I think the author is attempting to make the very valid point that not all good programmers can be expected to be giving freely of their non-work day time. In short -- life happens but then the jobs dry up and good talent is over looked or lost. And, yes, it does happen to women more than men.
The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS Community (2013)
61–68 of 68 posts
Re: The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS Community (2013)
#62i liked the article until it became feminist. the notion that because there are less women in industry recruiters cannot use a selection criterium that has intrinsically nothing to do with gender, however somehow guys score better on that criterium, doesn't sit well with me. like i'm evil and deserve less favourable treatment because i'm white and male.
i was kinda following you until that last part, where "not getting more favorable treatment" spontaneously mutated into "getting less favorable treatment"
Affirmative action type programs are often discussed/implemented as bi-modal.
Re: The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS Community (2013)
#63As a father of 1, I must agree to this: - I lose ~ 2-3 hours a day every day on commute alone. - I lose an additional 1-2 hours daily on getting my daughter ready, taking her to school, pickup from grandparents, and other daily needs of my daughter. - My income is SIGNIFICANTLY lessened by the expenses of my daughter If I was not a father, I would have the following: - I could live 15 minutes away from work by foot,…
> As a father of 1, I must agree to this Yep, and people who are disabled (or act as a caretaker) are in a similar boat. Ironically, you are probably a better bet for a lot of employers than that average young single male because you value stability. You're not gonna jump ship because you want a foosball table or expect to have lunch catered every day.
So to say that I must drive myself crazy just to meet your need for me to have OSS projects on my resume, I rather work somewhere else.
Side note: I work at a dream job, getting paid below market value, and won't trade it in because... how many people work in a job where everyone is underpaid and wants to be in the office every day because it is just so amazing?
Re: The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS Community (2013)
#64i liked the article until it became feminist. the notion that because there are less women in industry recruiters cannot use a selection criterium that has intrinsically nothing to do with gender, however somehow guys score better on that criterium, doesn't sit well with me. like i'm evil and deserve less favourable treatment because i'm white and male.
Agreed. I am tired of being told I have all this "privilege" just because I was born with a penis and have to wear sunscreen when I am outside. Okay I can pee standing up, but other than than? Also whenever these kinds of arguments are made Asians are always counted as white, even though more Asians work in the tech sector than should by chance.
In this context the "privilege" is your normal. It's not some extra perk you consciously take, it's that you don't get some shit that happens to other people.
If your house is robbed you can call the police and not worry that they'll arrest or shoot you instead.
You can do your job with little fear that your boss will want to sleep with you and impede your career if you reject his advances.
You can use public toilets without causing uproar and/or breaking laws.
And you can be blissfully unaware that such things are real problems, because it either never happens to you, or happens rarely and on a smaller scale than for some marginalized people.
People asking you to mind your privilege don't want you to feel guilty. They want you to understand and believe that they have to deal with things that don't happen to you.
Re: The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS Community (2013)
#65I stopped contributing OSS lately after seeing how many startups use some of my modules. Why should I work for free to help others profit? Yet if I use restrictive licenses people just avoid the software altogether. If my open-source software is successful I just end up being exploited financially. EDIT: Downvotes? I guess it's socially unacceptable to not want to contribute to OSS because someone else will just make…
Why not use a license that merely prohibits commercial use? And presumably the startups in question are actually adding some value to your code beyond just implementing it with a wrapper. It's not like they are building a business around your piece of code (or are they?)
Come to think of it, it's not even clear you could effectively write such a license for software (the analogous artistic license is generally about performance/broadcast, which doesn't have an equivalent in software). Once the user has received the code from the licensor, legally the situation is out of the licensor's hands _except for the issue of redistribution_, which is what the GPL restricts.
Re: The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS Community (2013)
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. I am tired of being told I have all this "privilege" just because I was born with a penis and have to wear sunscreen when I am outside. Okay I can pee standing up, but other than than? Also whenever these kinds of arguments are made Asians are always counted as white, even though more Asians work in the tech sector than should by chance.
> Okay I can pee standing up, but other than than? In this context the "privilege" is your normal . It's not some extra perk you consciously take, it's that you don't get some shit that happens to other people. If your house is robbed you can call the police and not worry that they'll arrest or shoot you instead. You can do your job with little fear that your boss will want to sleep with you and impede your career if…
No I just have to fear that I say the wrong thing at a conference and lose my job.
>People asking you to mind your privilege don't want you to feel guilty
That is a lie.
Re: The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS Community (2013)
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't tell the gender of many people in opensource unless they use a username that indicates their gender. Looking at #thrift right now (a project I contribute to). I see 40 people not counting the channel bots. I count only 6 nicknames that suggest that they are likely to be men because they begin with names that are typically male names. The same is true for a lot of the github usernames I see. I wonder how of th…
Hi, I don't know your gender either, but I know lots of F/OSS developers whose names and legally represented genders have changed, even in projects I've committed to. There's a fairly big mix of attribution errors available, and ignoring the presence of silent women, non-binary folks, and transgender developers hasn't made my communities more welcoming to those folks. Community building is very, very hard work and it…
In fact, in my experience, those responses tend to put off newcomers with
backgrounds that are different than programmers like me (and presumably you)
who have been tinkering in this community since the early 90s.
TBH, I have absolutely no problem if linking to an article like esr's smart questions it off-putting to some people.Meredith Patterson's "When Nerds Collide" best describes how I'd like to see our community grow:
https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c
If esr's smart questions is off-putting, then you're probably bringing values into the community that I don't want to see become common, especially the value that you've made a solid attempt to help yourself before you asked others to help you. If you can't or won't do that, then you'll never ever succeed in this community and this profession/hobby, because constantly asking questions and answer them yourself is a fundamental skill.
Linking to an essay like esr's might be off-putting to women, no-binary and transgender developers, but it's also off-putting to cisgender developers. It's off-putting to any one who has grown accustomed to letting others do the work for them and who haven't developed a thick enough skin to accept a FAQ as an indirect response to their request for help. Lots of things about our community are off-putting to people regardless of gender identity or orientation. I myself am pansexual, identify as agender, but come across as cisgender (mainly because I choose my clothing based on comfort, fit and simplicity (I pretty much have all the same clothes and only need to make a determination on the color, since varying color is sufficient to eliminate the judgement that I wear the same clothes everyday)).
If the aspects of our community that Meredith describes in her essay is off-putting to some, that's a good thing in my opinion because I don't want a culture in tech that is so accommodating that it evolves into including so much of the rest of society that it develops into having a notion of intersectionality that no longer accommodates weirdos. I have on more than one occasion seen very capable engineers rejected as a candidate because one or more people interpreted their aspie behaviors and mannerisms as "creepy". For example, being aware and accommodating of the mind-blindness off others is as important as being aware and accommodating of the gender and gender identities of others.
My personal experience has been that identity politics drives people apart. It used to be that when I came across someone of a different gender or gender identity as my own, I paid it no attention. What mattered was that we all had engineering and programming things to nerd out over. Now I don't like going to engineering conferences anymore because the environment of gender politics is palpable. Instead I've directed more energy and time to IRC and Github where people are focused on more interesting things like the qualities of someone's contributions (code and ideas) and not their identity. If there is no culture of constructivism and proofs, it's probably not a forum I have interest in. Most conferences no longer represent a culture of constructivism and proofs. Only conferences like StrangeLoop, RacketCon, ErlangFactory, etc. interest me these days. Since they don't represent language communities that are also an active job market (ruby, python, javascript, go, php, java), they don't suffer nearly as much from identity politics overshadowing the computer science.
Re: The Ethics of Unpaid Labor and the OSS Community (2013)
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hi, I don't know your gender either, but I know lots of F/OSS developers whose names and legally represented genders have changed, even in projects I've committed to. There's a fairly big mix of attribution errors available, and ignoring the presence of silent women, non-binary folks, and transgender developers hasn't made my communities more welcoming to those folks. Community building is very, very hard work and it…
In fact, in my experience, those responses tend to put off newcomers with backgrounds that are different than programmers like me (and presumably you) who have been tinkering in this community since the early 90s. TBH, I have absolutely no problem if linking to an article like esr's smart questions it off-putting to some people. Meredith Patterson's "When Nerds Collide" best describes how I'd like to see our communit…
That said: a lot of us have constructed our identities through exploration online, so the notion that IRC and GitHub are not expressive of personal identity sounds a little weird to me. It's very, very hard to actually separate identity from the developer, especially when it comes to activities like bug triage. I don't have a good answer, but I think there's an assumption that what we can measure necessarily is what is important, when what we measure in terms of programmers is often what's easy to measure.