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Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

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Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#31

Post by willwagner »

matrix wrote: post #14

HelpHive (the directory) is absolutely in the wrong here. Their business model is unethical at best; it's on par with spamming and link-farming. It doesn't surprise me in the least that the founder of HelpHive is a former RealNetworks employee.

To me, unless the phone number is clearly marked that it's from HelpHive as opposed to the business, it's similar to a phishing site; it could really get delisted by google which would be the kiss of death for this company's business.

I use google all the time to quickly get contact info; I'll have to check the source a lot more carefully if this becomes a commonplace.

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#32

Post by pbhjpbhj »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #2

"Conklin's missive raises an interesting point: Do businesses (or individuals for that matter) have any control over what's published or said about them on third-party directory sites? And do businesses have control over the phone numbers being represented to the public?" Yes, when its a material misrepresentation of the facts. Putting up a false phone number for a company is not only unethical, its fraudulent. To me…

It's "passing off" a slightly weaker part of trademark law. They are pretending to the public that their service is that of someone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off - written from the UK perspective, it's certainly part of EU TM law too, but I don't know enough about US TM law to comment properly on this.

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#33

Post by pbhjpbhj »

nym wrote: post #28
pyre wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue here is that someone viewing HelpHive's website would be under the impression that the phone number provided on the listing for "Mountain View Toyota" is their direct number, and not a 'proxy' number that redirects them. What happens when HelpHive screws up their phone service and loses customers for "Mountain View Toyota" because they got no connection or a 'line disconnected' message? What happens…

I agree that you have to clear about "connecting" the customer to the business, not providing the direct number. In some ways this is better than a regular phone number because if the business' number does change, the proxied number could stay the same. The gross exaggeration you're referring to is something that's easily overcome though by tracking total calls vs unique calls. Also you get great stats like how long…

If you put the ultimate company name (the service the customer is trying to contact) and then your phone number then that's passing off, tortuous malfeasance in European TM law (and I'd be highly surprised if it's allowed in the US).

If you want to advertise a business lookup service the ethical and legal way is to put your own name, then something like "contact Mountain View Cars through SuperHappyConmen.com on 123-456-7890, we are not associates of Mountain View Cars".

If people want to buy tracked phone numbers for their ads they will, I'm more than happy for you to provide them. But it's not your choice whether they take on your service or not.

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#34

Post by shpxnvz »

jamesbritt wrote: post #9
dstorrs wrote: post #6

What left me puzzled was why HelpHive didn't simply de-list Conklin with an apology and a statement that it wasn't their intent to harm his business. It seems that this would have been the ethical thing to do, and would have resulted in some good publicity for them.

"It seems that this would have been the ethical thing to do, and would have resulted in some good publicity for them." HelpHive doesn't seem so big on on the whole "ethical thing".

Yeah, but regardless of ethics it seems like an incredibly small price to pay to avoid negative publicity and a possible lawsuit.

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#35

Post by WesleyJohnson »

You know, I sometimes find it difficult to find local numbers for things like City Hall, Utility companies or even Police and Fire stations. I'm going to setup a service similar to HelpHive to help the reach these services are getting into the public and I'll list my own number so I can show them metrics about all the good things I'm doing for them. Maybe, just maybe, I'll record the call too.

Yeah, I know that's extreme, but this whole thing just reeks of wrong to me. I'm siding with the Plumber on this one.

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#36

Post by eli_s »

Wow this is just disgusting slimeball behaviour on the part of helphive. A business' phone number is an important part of it's identity. Business owners pay to have memorable numbers (repeating digits etc.) - not to mention numbers like 1800-PLUMBER to help people remember the number.

Now this mafiozi wedges himself between a legitimate local business and their clientele - it's so plainly wrong!

What happens when this bottom feeder (helphive) goes out of business? How many people have now got a number for a local business written in their diary or on the fridge, which no longer works?

This is without a doubt unethical and I imagine illigal. Let's hope there's someone out there with deep enough pockets to sue this guy into bankruptcy!

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#37

Post by eli_s »

nym wrote: post #29
nfnaaron wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole thing reminds me, also, of the GetSatisfaction pile. Bottom line at the top, I doubt if HiveMind is illegal, but I believe the phone number hijacking is unethical. But what this also reminds me of is news organizations' objection to article links on aggregation sites. The difference, of course, is after you follow a link you're "there" (assuming you haven't been framed) and can bookmark it as you wish, and…

It all depends on what they do with the proxied number. If they're just watching traffic, that's no less unethical than proxying a URL like Google does to see how many people click on an item in their SERP.

that is such bullshit. When google acts as proxy I dont associate the proxy link as the actual link to the resource I'm looking for.

This fool has wedged himself between the client and business and in the process has hijacked the business' phone number. When helphive goes out of business how many people will still try to contact their local plumber, get a no signal tone and assume the plumber is no longer in business?

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#38

Post by nym »

eli_s wrote: post #37
nym wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends on what they do with the proxied number. If they're just watching traffic, that's no less unethical than proxying a URL like Google does to see how many people click on an item in their SERP.

that is such bullshit. When google acts as proxy I dont associate the proxy link as the actual link to the resource I'm looking for. This fool has wedged himself between the client and business and in the process has hijacked the business' phone number. When helphive goes out of business how many people will still try to contact their local plumber, get a no signal tone and assume the plumber is no longer in business…

My mistake, Google isn't doing this (I thought they did?). Facebook does for outbound links, for example http://www.datmansymbol.com/ is actually:

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.datma...

The right approach would be to have the hivemind number say "Connecting you to ... one moment please", at least being more transparent about the process. I just think there is an ethical way to proxy numbers.

Incidentally, Hotels.com forces you to use their 800 number as well, although they have an established relationship. I often will google the hotel name to get the real number, since you know, I might have questions about the hotel that hotels.com can't actually answer.

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#39

Post by jfager »

dschobel wrote: post #30
jfager wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Service for whom? It doesn't serve the business - I'm sure they'd much rather people contact them directly - and it doesn't serve the customer - who wants to deal with a middleman when your toilet's overflowing? The only one served by this is the middleman, who gets to hijack leads and extort businesses.

The value added over a "dumb" directory is that you can use ratings to inform your decision instead of taking the service provider's word of being "the best in town". I'm not making this stuff up, tons of people use Yelp, Zaggats, GetSatisfaction, etc so obviously they're seeing value somewhere.

I use Yelp all the time, so I agree with you that there is value in a directory with ratings. But the value of Yelp comes from the carefully crafted community that I feel I can trust, not from some random star rating from faceless people, and I certainly wouldn't get any value if Yelp stepped in as a forced intermediary if I wanted to contact the business (that would make me stop using it immediately, actually).

Re: Plumber vs. programmer: a face-off over an online directory

#40

Post by jfager »

idoh wrote: post #27
mdasen wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, GetSatisfaction is different. The business model of Yelp or Zaggats is to sell ad space or books or whatnot. The business model of GetSatisfaction is to get companies to pay them so that the company can take down negative information about itself. With Yelp, there is no option for a business to pay them $100 per month so that you can take down bad reviews of your restaurant. That's a fundamental difference. GetSa…

Great post, but business can actually pay to remove negative Yelp reviews: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=yelp+...

No, they can't.

http://officialblog.yelp.com/2009/02/kathleen-richards-east-... http://officialblog.yelp.com/2009/02/east-bay-express-story-...

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