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The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

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Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#11

Post by therobot24 »

falsestprophet wrote: post #8
pdabbadabba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something I often ponder, and there are even more obvious targets for the sort of argument you're making. I typically think of the ASPCA -- I think the ASPCA is wonderful, and I love animals, but should anyone be donating money to ease the lives of animals when there are countless people, as you say, "dying of want"? More realistically, though, I think we should understand that different people have different…

"I think we should understand that different people have different philanthropic interests." Yes, but they're wrong. Imagine seeing a hungry dog on the street. Going over to feed it is a virtuous thing to be sure. But, to step over and ignore someone choking to death on your way to the dog is not. "give in the way they find most meaningful, even if it does not have the greatest 'objective' impact?" It's easy to be fo…

You appear to have a strong opinion of which charities are more 'meaningful' for a donation. Out of curiosity, which specifically make your list?

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#12

Post by tarikjn »

funkyy wrote: post #4

From when giving stuff for free to people helps them? How will they learn to save and organize their lives? Social welfare was never a solution to ANY problem when provided long term to the same people. Instead of giving for free lets do this - ask people to work for 8 hours a week cleaning streets etc - and IN EXCHANGE their water bills will be paid off.

There is a growing opinion and growing number of studies done on the subject. That is, simply giving poor people cash helps alleviate poverty in better ways than (many or most) organized projects can, as the theory is that they better know how to spend it on their needs than those in position to help.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/10/25/240590433/what-hap...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/opinion/let-them-eat-cash....

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141214/christopher-bl...

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#13

Post by tiffani »

funkyy wrote: post #4

From when giving stuff for free to people helps them? How will they learn to save and organize their lives? Social welfare was never a solution to ANY problem when provided long term to the same people. Instead of giving for free lets do this - ask people to work for 8 hours a week cleaning streets etc - and IN EXCHANGE their water bills will be paid off.

From talking to hundreds of people over the course of running this project, in many cases, what we have is not a failure to organize one's life. Instead, it's life events such as being laid off or having a medical issue get out of hand and force a person to leave work and forgo a salary that cause people to fall behind and need assistance.

In other cases, people are in situations where they're not earning enough to cover all of their life expenses, but the water department itself has turned them down for assistance. We see their attempts to do the best they can in their payment patterns. $25 here, $50 there as soon as they can.

These are not people that sit around actively looking for handouts. And many people we've helped have volunteered to help us however they can.

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#14

Post by dang »

funkyy wrote: post #4

From when giving stuff for free to people helps them? How will they learn to save and organize their lives? Social welfare was never a solution to ANY problem when provided long term to the same people. Instead of giving for free lets do this - ask people to work for 8 hours a week cleaning streets etc - and IN EXCHANGE their water bills will be paid off.

"Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#15

Post by maxerickson »

falsestprophet wrote: post #3

It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries. "Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount. If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think…

Did you hold your most recent meal to this same standard?

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#16

Post by falsestprophet »

maxerickson wrote: post #15
falsestprophet wrote: post #3

It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries. "Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount. If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think…

Did you hold your most recent meal to this same standard?

This is a good point of view because it frames these donations as personal consumption, which I think is accurate and distinct from the duty we owe our fellow man.

So yes, I view donating to this or the opera similarly to eating a meal.

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#17

Post by csixty4 »

pdabbadabba wrote: post #5
funkyy wrote: post #4

From when giving stuff for free to people helps them? How will they learn to save and organize their lives? Social welfare was never a solution to ANY problem when provided long term to the same people. Instead of giving for free lets do this - ask people to work for 8 hours a week cleaning streets etc - and IN EXCHANGE their water bills will be paid off.

Do you seriously contend that the problems plaguing Detroit are a result of their residents' collective failure to organize their lives properly? I think most people agree that the rampant poverty in Detroit -- and the resulting unpaid water bills -- are largely a result of city-level mismanagement and the evaporation of employment opportunities resulting in tax-revenue death spiral. We're talking about a city where…

Detroit has also raised the price of water a couple times over the last decade to make up for budget shortfalls from lower tax revenue. I think it's more than double what it was in 2005.

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#18

Post by falsestprophet »

tiffani wrote: post #10
falsestprophet wrote: post #3

It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries. "Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount. If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think…

Founder of Detroit Water Project here. Despite what you’ve said, this is a serious effort to do good. You mention saving a life versus contributing to a water bill. Why are those so dissimilar? Our assistance application data shows that over 350 children are in houses affected by this crisis. Not having running water at your house is a real problem. It’s a public health and sanitation issue. People have not been able…

I suggest offering the option to both your donors and recipients to divert the funds to save as many lives as possible (call the Watsi crew).

"It’s a false dichotomy to say that you either save a life by helping a child in a poor country OR give to a water bill in the United States. You can do both in proportion to your ability."

For whatever proportion of someone's resources they are willing to give, they can choose to save lives for US$1-5k each.

Instead of providing one $1k life saving surgery and $1k water bill, two $1k surgeries could save two lives.

Sadly there is not a shortage of dying men, women and children who can be saved cheaply.

Perhaps one day there will be... if we stop goofing around.

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#19

Post by tiffani »

falsestprophet wrote: post #18
tiffani wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Founder of Detroit Water Project here. Despite what you’ve said, this is a serious effort to do good. You mention saving a life versus contributing to a water bill. Why are those so dissimilar? Our assistance application data shows that over 350 children are in houses affected by this crisis. Not having running water at your house is a real problem. It’s a public health and sanitation issue. People have not been able…

I suggest offering the option to both your donors and recipients to divert the funds to save as many lives as possible (call the Watsi crew). "It’s a false dichotomy to say that you either save a life by helping a child in a poor country OR give to a water bill in the United States. You can do both in proportion to your ability." For whatever proportion of someone's resources they are willing to give, they can choose…

I'm not against people getting medical treatments if they need them, but why call what we're doing "goofy"?

The single mother of three we helped who was contemplating forgoing her heart medication to make sure her children had water (and lost it anyway because she needed her heart medication) wouldn't call this "goofing around."

I'm genuinely interested in why you insist on framing this that way.

Edit: Nothing that we're doing suggests we value some lives over others. Watsi helps a specific demographic, we help another. Everyone wins here.

Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills

#20

Post by [deleted] »

falsestprophet wrote: post #18
tiffani wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Founder of Detroit Water Project here. Despite what you’ve said, this is a serious effort to do good. You mention saving a life versus contributing to a water bill. Why are those so dissimilar? Our assistance application data shows that over 350 children are in houses affected by this crisis. Not having running water at your house is a real problem. It’s a public health and sanitation issue. People have not been able…

I suggest offering the option to both your donors and recipients to divert the funds to save as many lives as possible (call the Watsi crew). "It’s a false dichotomy to say that you either save a life by helping a child in a poor country OR give to a water bill in the United States. You can do both in proportion to your ability." For whatever proportion of someone's resources they are willing to give, they can choose…

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