The 60% load factor seems a dream come true... well above offshore wind levels (c. 50%). Having said that, I'm very curious to know the capex per MW, and the ongoing O&M costs for each of the kites. Onshore wind has experienced a considerable decline both in the cost of the turbine and O&M... my impression is that this technology is not going to be cheap to run. Anyone has any insight?
Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
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Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
#12Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that wind turbines were effectively unsustainable due to the materials they are made of and their actual lifespan not offsetting the initial financial and environmental costs. Now, I understand that this project is supposed to provide greater versatility and efficiency using cheaper materials, but it seems to me (by no means an expert on the subject) that…
> effectively unsustainable due to the materials they are made of and their actual lifespan not offsetting the initial financial and environmental costs
I don't know where you got the information from, but I can assure you that that is not the case. Wind is extremely sustainable, even if we factor in the carbon footprint of the production and construction of the wind farm.
Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
#13Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that wind turbines were effectively unsustainable due to the materials they are made of and their actual lifespan not offsetting the initial financial and environmental costs. Now, I understand that this project is supposed to provide greater versatility and efficiency using cheaper materials, but it seems to me (by no means an expert on the subject) that…
I'm fairly certain you're wrong about that. A quick googling suggests that a commercial wind turbine produces about 1M kWh/year, more or less. That's a great deal more energy than it would require to manufacture and install.
By comparison, it takes about a pound of coal to produce 1 kWh of electricity, more or less. So a single wind turbine produces the equivalent energy of a MILLION pounds of coal every year! How much does it cost to mine and transport that coal, not to mention the construction and operating costs of the plant?
That said, what problem is this solving? Well, the core solution is converting to wind-based power. The kites are just a cost reduction for the conversion process. They presumably cost less to make than standard towers, and are easier and cheaper to install. They probably have long-term cost/kWh benefits as well.
Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
#14Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that wind turbines were effectively unsustainable due to the materials they are made of and their actual lifespan not offsetting the initial financial and environmental costs. Now, I understand that this project is supposed to provide greater versatility and efficiency using cheaper materials, but it seems to me (by no means an expert on the subject) that…
"effectively unsustainable" Got any data or a link to a resource that will back this claim up?
I think in comparison to existing fossil fuels (price/ROI), in this WIki article they talk about how the drop of oil price meant funding for these types of projects went away:
Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
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Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
#16Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
#17Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that wind turbines were effectively unsustainable due to the materials they are made of and their actual lifespan not offsetting the initial financial and environmental costs. Now, I understand that this project is supposed to provide greater versatility and efficiency using cheaper materials, but it seems to me (by no means an expert on the subject) that…
I've never heard the argument that current wind turbine are unsustainable before. I don't see why that would be so. The base is concrete, the tower is steel, neither of which is exotic. The generator is pretty standard. All of that is industrial tech we invented a century ago, and we know how to maintain it for the long haul. The blades themselves are composite, that may have some longevity issues (you typically need…
Thank you for your reply. I used to live in Scotland where there are a lot of wind turbines and I remember controversy in the news about the fact that while the expected lifespan of a wind turbine should be around 20 years, the actual lifespan ended up being in the region of 12 years, and the long-term maintenance costs ended up being higher than expected. There was also controversy about the environmental damage done to forests and birds, as well as noise pollution, though I guess this isn't directly related to the subject at hand.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of clean energy, I'm genuinely trying to inform myself about the pros and cons of each solution.
Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
#18Good, could people just stop messing with how scrolling works.
Yeah! hate these kind of websites.
Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
#19Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that wind turbines were effectively unsustainable due to the materials they are made of and their actual lifespan not offsetting the initial financial and environmental costs. Now, I understand that this project is supposed to provide greater versatility and efficiency using cheaper materials, but it seems to me (by no means an expert on the subject) that…
For the USA, the energy returned on energy invested for wind mostly beats oil and is more than twice a good as current photovoltaics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_inves...
Re: Google Makani – Wind Energy Kites
#20Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that wind turbines were effectively unsustainable due to the materials they are made of and their actual lifespan not offsetting the initial financial and environmental costs. Now, I understand that this project is supposed to provide greater versatility and efficiency using cheaper materials, but it seems to me (by no means an expert on the subject) that…
I've never heard the argument that current wind turbine are unsustainable before. I don't see why that would be so. The base is concrete, the tower is steel, neither of which is exotic. The generator is pretty standard. All of that is industrial tech we invented a century ago, and we know how to maintain it for the long haul. The blades themselves are composite, that may have some longevity issues (you typically need…
My understanding is that, among other things, the generators come under extreme stress during exceptionally windy occasions, causing a lot of wear and tear that happens way up at the top of these giant windmills.
These require a lot of manual maintenance, which is dangerous and expensive due to the nature (and location) of the work.
Additionally (and as a demonstration of just how much stress they come under), while coming under said strain, they've been known to burst into flames https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_oFPF6Anwo
As for their lifespan, the government agencies that build them claim 25 years, but there's controversy about this. Searching online will find you conflicting studies, including this one http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/280-analysis-of-wind-farm..., which states
"Analysis of site-specific performance reveals that the average normalised load factor of new UK onshore wind farms at age 1 (the peak year of operation) declined significantly from 2000 to 2011" indicating that they may wear out more on the order of ten years.
Now that was a cursory search but in any case the argument that the wind farms cost so much to maintain that they're nonviable is not new.
Wind turbines aren't exotic tech, but it is a giant turbine that is placed way up on a pole, and fundamentally a turbine will need maintenance, so someone has to go up and do that maintenance, and that's expensive.