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Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

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Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#161

Post by Lawtonfogle »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #75
etherael wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programmers as a blue colar job ?

Not blue-collar because we wear blue collars or perform physical labour, but because programmers are not professionals - we're not architects, we're bricklayers. In the conventional business mindset programmers just implement a plan devised by someone else. Consequently we are fungible (easily replaced by cheaper alternatives), and a cost rather than an asset.

That is how we are often treated. That is also (one of many reasons) why large projects constantly fail (or else go so massively over budget that you should still call it a failure).

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#162

Post by Arwill »

nn3 wrote: post #34
Arwill wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What i commonly notice is if a developer starts solving the problem at its core, and then builds the interfaces around it, or he starts writing "utility" code, like writing code in hope that the problem will solve itself if enough helper code (or framework code) has been written for it. When i see a developer doing the latter, i know he will not be too productive, because he has no clear vision of the solution.

You're dismissing bottom up programing. That is actually a wide used technique, especially useful when the problem is not completely understood at the beginning.

>when the problem is not completely understood at the beginning

That was my point too, you just formulated it in a more positive way. If the developer does not understand the problem completely, then he will do what you describe as bottom up programming.

Experimenting, in addition to taking more time than just spilling out the solution, also produces code that is not used in the final solution. So yes, a library for manipulating a certain kind of data is nice. But when it has functions that are never used, that is lost productivity. And even if the library is there, when a function becomes necessary, it might require different parameters or different application over data. Then making a conversion routine around the library function to fit the new usage also takes time, and potentially leads to inefficiency.

So my principle is that understanding the problem well is still better. That does not exclude experimenting, but its easier to experiment without spending time actually coding up a false solutions, just in ones head, when the problem is well understood.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#163

Post by joneil »

steven2012 wrote: post #44
encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

I've been in the industry for >20 years. I've met 2 engineers/programmers that some would call the mythical 10x engineer. These are engineers that you can literally build your entire company on their shoulders because they do everything and they do everything with very few mistakes. The problem with the term is that everyone thinks they are 10x engineers, when they aren't. As I've mentioned, there were only 2 people…

I'm sorry about your friend... That is devastating. Hope you're okay.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#164

Post by encoderer »

nemothekid wrote: post #84
encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

Its rather strange you would bring up Notch, as I wouldn't consider Notch-run Minecraft a marvel of engineering. I'd hate to be the guy who cleans up after him, and while Minecraft works (and it is a really great game), most people consider to be terribly built.[1] So yes, while Notch is a rather speedy engineer, I wouldn't consider the skills of an engineer based on how fast they code. Maintainability is an importan…

I have to second what amagumori wrote.

Not all code has to be a platform. It's entirely acceptable to write code that "just works" and does not pretend to be 'future proof' or any nonsense like that.

In YC they tell you the same thing: just write the hell out of it and get it done. You will rewrite everything later anyway when you know more about the business and the customers. Games work a bit different, but the lesson applies.

Yes good engineering is important, and Google is a great example. Do you think the code Larry and Sergey wrote early on was anything close to shippable code at Google today? I guarantee you it was a mess of python scripts and c libraries.

YAGNI. Make your product the edifice, not your code.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#165

Post by jamessb »

learc83 wrote: post #140
marcus_holmes wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, it's not an entirely fair comparison. But from my understanding of the health industry, the consultants are absolutely the top of the food chain despite their whinges about management. This is not true of even highly-paid consultant programmers (and highly-paid tech consultants are almost never allowed to waste their time actually programming).

>and highly-paid tech consultants are almost never allowed to waste their time actually programming There are plenty of niche programming consultants that are highly paid to actually program--firmware reverse engineering, and cryptographic security specialists are 2 of them. There was a whole thread a few years ago where tptacek argued that $400 an hour is reasonable for certain specialty programmers, which is more t…

The thread you're referring to is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5769506

He gave 4 example categories: "expert developers with domain expertise in finance" also "cryptographic security specialists", "hardware reverse engineers", and "high-end SEO"

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#166

Post by [deleted] »

xendo wrote: post #58
Fiahil wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you 22 years old, fresh out of school, you are going to be writing code all day. And that's how it should be, You need to cut-your-teeth. I'm 22 years old, fresh out of school and I'm as involved in design, recruiting and peer reviews as my older peers. And that's how it should be. Why? Because age has nothing to do with productivity, understanding or ability to come up with simple, elegant and maintainable desi…

Experience on the other hand has a lot to do with all those things.

[deleted]

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#167

Post by SiVal »

smoyer wrote: post #160
SiVal wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly agree with your point [1]. I think the 10x programmer exists, and the phenomenon is primarily as you describe: you spend a long time figuring out how to do something with a lot of moving parts and hidden gotchas. You eventually track down every bug, resolve every misunderstanding, reorganize and simplify, and you remember what you learned. Next time something similar arises, you blow the doors off anyone e…

I think we actually agree on point [2] ... using the hard-earned knowledge again while solving a new problem (of sufficient complexity) still requires significant problem-solving (puzzle solving?) skills. I've also mastered making web interfaces that perform CRUD operations against databases ... I don't want to spend my career reliving the ground-hog day of CRUD interfaces.

I still think we disagree a little on [2], but I love your "Groundhog Day" metaphor. It's perfect, couldn't be better. If you've seen the Bill Murray movie Groundhog Day, you'll know what I mean when I say that sometimes that's exactly what I want. I want to be the guy who has lived this day before and looks like a genius to all those mere mortals who are experiencing it for the first time. It feels great to have such a huge advantage, especially when it was earned.

But, like you, I don't want to be stuck there. I want to experience it often, but I want to have plenty of new days, too.

Re: Programming is terrible – Lessons learned from a life wasted (2013) [video]

#168

Post by pursuing »

sheepmullet wrote: post #98
encoderer wrote: post #7

He bashes the "myth of the 10x" engineer. Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example. Anybody who has watched N0tch code on Twitch knows that there are certainly people who are far more productive coders than the average engineer. I have no idea if he's…

"Clearly the idea of the 10xer has too big a place in the mythology of our industry. It's oddly masochistic and as far as I know it's unique to us. There are no doctors blogging about "10x doctors" for example." It takes 6-8 years of intense training to become a doctor. This is after already doing well in college and passing a tough skills/general intelligence test. The bottom 70%+ who want to become doctors are simp…

How do you justify the 70% number? Do a Google site search of healthgrades.com and you'll find doctors practicing in America who graduated from American University of The Caribbean, which is among the lowest regarded of medical schools American doctors attend. I don't think admission into this university is difficult.
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