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What you wanted to know about AI

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Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at this point there's a respectable literature on the potential dangers of unconstrained, powerful optimizing agents, of which I linked a couple of examples. There isn't really though. Superintelligence, while an interesting book, doesn't do much more than pontificate on sci-fi futures based largely on writing from Yudkowski. Bostrom gives no clear pathway to AGI. Neither does Yudkowski in his own writings or Barrat…

> For example, find me someone who can tell me what kind of hardware we need for an AGI. Can't do it, because no one has any idea. Wouldn't the human brain qualify?

No, it's not Artificial.

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#142
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the current google car is already safer than the overall average driver. Don't forget some people speed, flee from the cops, fall asleep at the wheel, get drunk, text, look at maps, have strokes etc. So, sure at peak performance cars have a long way to go. However, accidents are often a worst case and computers are very good at paying attention to boring things for long periods of time. PS: If driverle…

> Don't forget some people speed, flee from the cops, fall asleep at the wheel, get drunk, text, look at maps, have strokes etc. Again you are falling into the same pit: a nonsensical comparison of human and computer operational/failure modes. Of course computers can't have strokes. And yes, they are good at "paying attention to boring things". That is trivially true. And that's not where the discussion should be foc…

A car that can that 80% of the time can get a sleepy or drunk people home would be a monumental advantage and likely save thousands of lives a year.

Basicly an MVP that flat out refuses to operate on non designated routes, bad weather, or even highway speeds could still be very useful.

PS: Classic stop and go traffic is another area where speeds are low, conditions are generally good. But, because people can't pay attention to boring things you regularly see traffic accidents which creat massive gridlock cost people day's per year sitting in traffic.

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#143
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that it can't be argued against. It's a set of logical steps, any one of which can be critiqued: 1 - There's no real dispute that computers will eventually be as "powerful" as brains. In fact, it's likely that they will one day be far more powerful. 2 - Assuming the brain evolved naturally, there's no reason to assume humans won't eventually duplicate the software once we have the hardware. It's really onl…

Step 4 is not at all obvious and would require some significant justification. General intelligence is, well, general . My primate brain may not be able at all to intuit what it is like to move on a 7-dimensional hyper-surface in an 11-dimensional space, but thanks to the wonders of formalized mathematics I can work out and tell you anything you want to know about higher-dimensional geometry. If the super-intelligenc…

I agree that it's not impossible for us to understand something smarter than us. But I don't particularly like your examples. Understanding a static well-organized human-designed system like a 787 or a chess-playing algorithm is far simpler than understanding the thoughts and desires of a dynamic intelligence.

A better analogy would be to stick to IQ. How long would it take a group of people with an average IQ of 70 to understand and predict the workings of the mind of a genius with an IQ of 210? Probably a very long time, if ever. What if the genius was involved in direct competition with the group of people? She'd be incentivized to obscure her intentions and run circles around the group, and she'd likely succeed at both.

Just how intelligent might an AGI become given enough compute power? A 3x IQ increase is a conservative prediction. 10x, 100x, or even 1000x aren't unimaginable. How can pretend to know what such an intelligence might think about or care about?

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#144
post #114
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not worried about the immediate future at all. We definitely haven't reached the point where hastily-implemented regulations will do more good than harm. That said, you put it exactly right. The arguments about the potential long-term risk are persuasive regardless of where we are today. It bothers me to see this argument ignored time and time again.

> That said, you put it exactly right. The arguments about the potential long-term risk are persuasive regardless of where we are today. It bothers me to see this argument ignored time and time again. Actually I am almost completely unpersuaded by the arguments of Bostrom, Yudkowsky, et al, at least in their presented strong form. Superintelligent AI is not a magical black box with infinite compute capacity, the two…

I agree with a lesser form (timescale on which the AI self improves is probably going to be long enough for humans to deal with it) of your first argument, but I'm confused at how, given 'merely' lots of compute capacity can be countered by 'a number of ideas for this myself'.

Security for human level threats is already very poor, and we already have a relatively good threat model. If you suppose that an AI could have radically different incentives and vectors than than a human, it seems implausible that you could be secure, even in practice. I suppose you could say that these would be implemented in time, but it's not at all clear to me that a humanity which has trouble coordinating to stop global warming or unilateral nuclear disarmament would recognize this in time.

On the other hand, I'm slightly puzzled by why you think there's a huge unjustified leap between lack of value alignment and threat to the human race. Does most of your objection lie in 1) the lack of threat any given superintelligent AI would pose, because they're not going to be that much smarter than humans or 2) the lack of worry that they'll do anything too harmful to humans, because they'll do something relatively harmless, like trade with us or go into outer space?

For 1, I buy that it'd be a lot smarter than humans, because even if it initially starts out as humanlike, it can copy itself and be productive for longer periods of time (imagine what you could do if you didn't have to sleep, or could eat more to avoid sleeping). And we know that any "superintelligent" machine can be at least as efficient as the smartest humans alive. I would still not want to be in a war against a nation full of von Neumanns on weapons development, Muhammads on foreign policy and Napoleons on Military strategy.

For 2... I would need to hear specifics on how their morality would be close enough to ours to be harmless. But judging by your posts cross thread this doesn't seem to be the main point.

By the way, I must thank you for your measured tone and willingness to engage on this issue. You seem to be familiar with some of the arguments, and perhaps just give different weights to them than I do. I've seen many gut level dismissals and I'm very happy to see that you're laying out your reasoning process.

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#145
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "straw man" here. The usual meaning is that to attack a straw man means to argue against a position that no one actually holds, but which is easier to attack than your opponent's actual position. The concerns about the long-term future of AI are real, actual beliefs held by serious people. At this point there's a respectable literature on the potential dangers of unconstrain…

at this point there's a respectable literature on the potential dangers of unconstrained, powerful optimizing agents, of which I linked a couple of examples. There isn't really though. Superintelligence, while an interesting book, doesn't do much more than pontificate on sci-fi futures based largely on writing from Yudkowski. Bostrom gives no clear pathway to AGI. Neither does Yudkowski in his own writings or Barrat…

I cannot disagree more strongly.

Look at the technologies underpinning the internet. We badly screwed up a lot of things that are very difficult to fix in retrospect, because we didn't invest enough time and effort into foreseeing the consequences.

Nobody worried about the fact that SMTP allows people to send millions of unsolicited messages at practically zero cost until it was far too late to fix the protocol. It is entirely plausible that an RFC describing a proof-of-work scheme could have fixed the problem from the outset, but now we're stuck with Bayesian filters and black/whitelists that sort of work acceptably most of the time.

The issues we're seeing regarding surveillance and censorship could have been hugely ameliorated if our protocols were designed with greater foresight, if people like Cerf and Berners-Lee were more aware of those risks.

We look back in horror at the naive techno-utopianism of the past and the harms that resulted - tetraethyl lead, asbestos, nuclear fission, CFCs. They were all heralded as miracles of the modern age, but caused harms that we're still dealing with today. The technology industry needs to be far more circumspect about the hazards of what we do. We need less hype about changing the world, and more sleepless nights about the people we might be harming.

We need to be having big discussions right now about every aspect of technology, before we open Pandora's box. For example, the World Anti-Doping Agency already have rules prohibiting genetic doping in sport, because they know that it's a potential risk. They would rather figure out their policies now in the cold light of day, rather than in a panic when the Russian team arrive at the 2032 Olympics with a team of superhuman mutants.

AGI is a starting point for broader discussions about how society deals with increasingly powerful and ubiquitous computing technologies. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't, but I don't think that's particularly important; What we can all agree on is that machine intelligence will only become more disruptive to society.

We need to plan now for what we would do if certain technologies come good. Driverless cars might never happen or they might be five years away, but we need to figure out what to do with the millions of Americans who drive for a living before we put them all out of work. What would be the social and ethical implications of brain-computer interfaces, of algorithmic decision-making in medicine or the criminal justice system, of ubiquitous facial recognition and tracking? How can we plan to mitigate those harms? If we don't give serious thought to those kinds of questions, then we're sleepwalking into the future.

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#146
Study AGI approaches like OpenCog, HTM, etc. and look at mainstream deep learning objectively. Lose your supernatural beliefs about the mind or human exceptionalism.

What do people do? Advanced pattern-based behavior generation and unsupervised hierarchical spatial temporal pattern learning and abstraction. Logic and reasoning. Attention and goals.

I believe we will start to see somewhat convincing human-like conversational interface, speaking and movement from machines in lesx than five years. I don't even believe these things require real breakthroughs necessarily -- we can probably mostly combine existing techniques.

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the time between when we first start to see promising progess in AI to the point where AI is out of our control would be so short that we would not be able to react to prevent it. That seems pretty absurd to me. A human-level AGI is going to require a sizable amount of time and data to train, so that it knows something rather than nothing. In fact, getting to the point where self-improvement becomes viable will take…

What's absurd is to have a strong conviction about inviolable restrictions on systems that haven't been imagined yet. The examples you cite aren't even compelling on their face. For instance if you include whole-brain emulations in AGI (and we should because the consequences are essentially the same) it would take zero time to train. But even without whole-brain emulations a child learns rapidly from its environment…

>What's absurd is to have a strong conviction about inviolable restrictions on systems that haven't been imagined yet.

AGI has already been imagined. And yes, it does have to obey the laws of information theory: only one bit of knowledge can be learned from sensory inputs with one bit of entropy.

>An AGI could conceivably do the same but faster, and moreover could take advantage of access to the Internet.

Children still take 20 years to grow from infancy to being useful adults. If we hypothesize that an AGI could learn, say, 10x faster, we're assuming a two-year training time.

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And no, machine learning/deep learning is not that shift; it is just another flavor of the same statistics that everybody already uses. How do you think the human mind runs? Something other than statistics?

Human minds don't run on statistics. Some can be explained by statistical modeling but we don't really understand how an organic brain works.

>Human minds don't run on statistics.

Theoretical neuroscience at least partially disagrees[1]

[1] -- http://www.fil.ion.ucl.ac.uk/~karl/The%20free-energy%20princ...

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#149
post #114
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not worried about the immediate future at all. We definitely haven't reached the point where hastily-implemented regulations will do more good than harm. That said, you put it exactly right. The arguments about the potential long-term risk are persuasive regardless of where we are today. It bothers me to see this argument ignored time and time again.

> That said, you put it exactly right. The arguments about the potential long-term risk are persuasive regardless of where we are today. It bothers me to see this argument ignored time and time again. Actually I am almost completely unpersuaded by the arguments of Bostrom, Yudkowsky, et al, at least in their presented strong form. Superintelligent AI is not a magical black box with infinite compute capacity, the two…

I just want to point out: the history of software, just regular software, has been typified by the New Jersey approach and the MIT approach. The former consists in just hacking together something that kinda-mostly works, releasing fast, and trying to ameliorate problems later. The latter consists in thoroughly considering what the software needs to do, designing the code correctly the first time with all necessary functionality, (ideally) proving the code correct before releasing it, putting it through a very thorough QA process, and then releasing with a pre-made plan for dealing with any remaining bugs (that you didn't catch in the verification, testing, and other QA stages).

Only the latter is used for programming important things like airplanes, missile silos, and other things that can kill people and cost millions or billions of dollars when they go wrong -- the things in which society knows we cannot afford software errors.

I don't think it's even remotely a leap to say that we ought to apply only this thorough school of engineering to artificial general intelligence, whether it's at the level of an idiotic teenager or whether it's a superintelligent scifi thingy.

Now, if we think we can't really solve the inherent philosophical questions involved in making a "world optimization" AI that cannot go wrong, then we should be thinking about ways to write the software so that it simply doesn't do any "world optimization", but instead just performs a set task on behalf of its human owners, and does nothing else at all.

But either way, I think leaving it up to New Jersey kludging is a Very Bad Idea.

Re: What you wanted to know about AI

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Saying that we don't have to worry because smarter than human intelligences will have a better understanding of morality is also missing the point. All currently known mathematical formalisms for decision-making allow you to plug in arbitrary utility functions, including "immoral" ones. Thinking that future decision-making formalisms will support only "moral" utility functions is extreme wishful thinking. I'm going…

Yeah, I agree that reinforcement learning is probably a bad approach to FAI. Most of our toy models involve utility functions encoded directly into the AI, not reinforcement. That said, it's indeed very hard to directly specify a utility function involving paperclips. If our universe were a Game of Life universe and we knew exactly which configuration corresponds to a paperclip, I'd be able to do that right now. But…

>That said, it's indeed very hard to directly specify a utility function involving paperclips. If our universe were a Game of Life universe and we knew exactly which configuration corresponds to a paperclip, I'd be able to do that right now. But since we don't know the true laws of physics, the "hard way" involves encoding some kind of Solomonoff prior over all possible physical universes, and a rule for recognizing paperclips in each of them. That's kind of a tall order.

Or we just need an approach to AGI that gives us more conceptual abstraction than AIXI and its Solomonoff-based reasoning. Which we needed anyway, since AIXI_{tl} is "asymptotically optimal" with an additive constant larger than the remaining lifetime of the Earth.

Luckily, there's quite a large amount of bleeding-edge research into exactly that: learning "white-box" representations that are understandable and manipulable to human operators.

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