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“Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

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Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than a losing battle; it actually makes the housing problem worse. It's good for the lucky few who end up in rent-controlled housing, but most of the people who can't afford $4k/mo rents also aren't that lucky.

How does it make the housing problem worse in San Francisco? If we assume that the NIMBY crowd will continue to block new development and other interests will continue to block increases to the high limits for new construction across much of the city, then what would elimination of rent control do, other than ensure that every renter in the city was paying ~$2500+/month per bedroom? I have this idea that the monthly…

Even if no new housing could be built, rent control leads to underutilized housing.

When people pay $500 for something that could be rented out for $5000, they are more likely to keep it for weekend trips after they moved to LA, or at least not take any room mates.

Also, I don't know that there is any official numbers, but I've heard estimated that 10% of the SF rental stock is not rented out, because landlords don't find it worth the pain.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, the idea that it's your property and you can do what you want with it was often the justification not to rent to people of color, the disabled, and other disadvantaged groups. The counter argument is, that the governments of regions, (cities, counties, states, etc) have to account for externalities that businesses don't consider or care about. Governments see benefits in keeping housing affordable. Do…

"Interestingly, the idea that it's your property and you can do what you want with it was often the justification not to rent to people of color, the disabled, and other disadvantaged groups." Rent, maybe. Sell, no, since that would be a restraint on alienation :) "Governments see benefits in keeping housing affordable. Do you like having restaurants with waiters, stores with clerks, streets that are swept, trash col…

Sure, and in a purely capitalist system high food prices in the market are ostensibly "solved" by people dying of starvation or doing poorly because of malnutrition, but maybe there is a better way then pricing people out of a market.

Also that is the best case. Consider older people. I mean there is not really an economic incentive to help old people on fixed income afford homes. Maybe they should be turned out on the street to die, because if it was an issue, the market would have fixed it.

Blind market forces should eventually bring about a reverse, but you will get bubbles and depressions, and there are things which have social, ecological or other utility beyond dollars and cents which won't necessarily be accounted for.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#613
post #308
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's sort of obnoxious and should be illegal to force landlords to keep renters ad infinitum just because. That hardly seems fair to the landlord, no?

Why does it have to be fair to the landlord? How is the current situation fair the the renters? What makes fairness to one a higher priority than the other? If we have a limited amount of "fairness" to go around, I would rather hand it out to the people who would otherwise be displaced from their home, and possibly their city, than to the landlord who is already making a profit... just less of one than he/she could t…

> Why does it have to be fair to the landlord?

Well, it doesn't have to be.

But prospective landlords tend not to build new units (or maintain old ones) when they don't feel they are getting a fair deal. It leads directly to the situation they have in San Francisco, where property owners only rent to family, coalesce many smaller units in to few larger ones and sometimes withdraw their units from the market entirely.

Landlords are investing capital and their own labor in their properties. If the expected return on that investment is less than what they could get from government bonds and a 9-5 job, don't plan on a big expansion in housing stock.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#614
post #450
post #441

The reason this article is trending at the top of HN is the reason this person is going through this. The idea that great start-ups must exist on an 47 sq mile piece of land with utterly mediocre weather (the literal definition of mediocre, that is - one many of us love, myself included) in perfect coexistence with a quaint aging population below the poverty line, drug addicts, and the last generation that sought to…

I think people go to San Francisco for the 20-30 year old girls, not the aging population or drug addicts.

Thanks for the laugh.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In obscenely undersupplied cities like SF, rents become absurdly high very, very fast. That's what an efficient market is supposed to do. The high price then encourages the construction of more housing. There isn't enough supply because of rent control and other regulations that discourage or outright prohibit the construction of new or higher density housing. The market is doing exactly what an efficient market is…

Rent control isn't the source of the undersupply in SF. Restrictions on new construction (both legal and social) are the source of the undersupply in the city. Do you live in SF? If you did, you would know that in the few new residential buildings that have been constructed, rents are somewhere between $3000 and $4000 per bedroom. What developer could possibly refuse that income? Do you think that rent control is dri…

> Rent control isn't the source of the undersupply in SF.

It's a contributing factor.

> Because new construction is not covered by the rent control ordinances, in a market with extreme undersupply, like SF's, there is no economic reason for a developer not to build new housing stock.

That isn't entirely true. A developer has to build new housing stock somewhere. In a developed area that commonly means demolishing old low density housing to build new higher density housing. But if the low density housing has tenants that won't leave because they're paying below market rents, developers can't do that.

Rent control also contributes to high rents in another way: No matter how constrained supply becomes, tenants in rent controlled apartments don't feel any pressure to free up supply by moving somewhere else. Those units are effectively off the market, which requires new tenants to pay that much more to get one of the remaining units.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#616
post #587
post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Touché, though I don't agree with you on the "common usage" bit. People do in fact "rent (a home) forever", and from what I've gathered it's not that uncommon, at least for cases where "forever" is a person's adult life span. Even considering the temporary case, what does "temporary" mean? 1 year? 2? 5? 10? Where's the cut-off where you've rented for "too long" and it's ok to be kicked out of your home? Even if you c…

Temporary means that you pay a month's rent and are entitled to usage for a month. You don't pay rent and then come into permanent possession. There is a (temporary) time period attached to a rent payment. I don't entirely disagree with you here--I just think you're being a pedant to attempt a "technically correct" play.

Sorry, and I know you're probably predisposed to disbelieve me since I started off with a crappy tone, but I'm honestly not trying to be a pedant here.

I truly believe that most people (at least who live in SF; I can't speak for other cities) would not consider a rental "temporary" to the degree that you seem to be thinking. Whether or not they should is another matter, but I think the state of rentals here -- especially among rent-controlled units -- serves only to reinforce the belief that a rental can (and "should") be as permanent as the renter wants it to be. And it's a feedback loop: people believe this because of renter protections, which causes them to believe and fight for (and often get) even stronger renter protections, which allows their rental status to become even more "permanent", and so on.

Again, not saying it's right (or wrong), but I can easily see how the sentiment in SF is that renting need not be a permanent thing.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#617
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it have to be fair to the landlord? How is the current situation fair the the renters? What makes fairness to one a higher priority than the other? If we have a limited amount of "fairness" to go around, I would rather hand it out to the people who would otherwise be displaced from their home, and possibly their city, than to the landlord who is already making a profit... just less of one than he/she could t…

> Why does it have to be fair to the landlord? Well, it doesn't have to be. But prospective landlords tend not to build new units (or maintain old ones) when they don't feel they are getting a fair deal. It leads directly to the situation they have in San Francisco, where property owners only rent to family, coalesce many smaller units in to few larger ones and sometimes withdraw their units from the market entirely.…

A very good point, but I think it has to go both ways. Both renters and landlords need to feel like they're getting a good deal. Kill rent control without increasing supply or enacting other protections, and suddenly the fairness scale tips over to the landlords and completely away from many (most?) residents.

Definitely agree that the current situation is broken, but I was only suggesting that "it wouldn't be fair to landlords" is a bit too simple a consideration to make things right.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#618
post #571
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because by creating a scenario that encourages assholes, all the not-assholes get pushed out. And thus, by being short-sighted nice people, you wind up with a city of assholes. As a landlord, deciding to raise rent on your units a modest amount, instead of a financially crippling amount, does not put you in a position to be "pushed out" than landlords who choose to be greedy. Your costs have not increased such that y…

Long story short, you believe that basic market forces should not apply to housing because that makes some people into assholes. Bluntly, this is naive. More importantly, it does exactly nothing to actually help address the problems at hand. All it does is give you a way to shake your head and make clucking noises as you feel morally superior. A few years ago, I would have listened to you and probably even agreed. Th…

Hey, this all started with a question by someone asking if making your renters unable to afford their rent to fulfill a profit motive makes one an asshole. I said yes.

So what do we do to address the problem at hand? It sounds like you'd advocate for a repeal of rent control, because landlords should be able to extract all the profit they can from their properties? That's not going to fix the housing supply issue; all it's going to do is turn SF into a rich-people-only city where service workers need to live elsewhere and get bused in every day. That's not a place I want to live, and would be a direct result of "market forces" -- but not really, because government regulation nullifies market forces in many cases. Rent control is only one part of it... prop 13 and the city's byzantine planning process are others, and there are certainly more.

So, looking for suggestions? Here's what we do:

1. Gut the city's construction planning process. Make it more objective and based on zoning laws and building codes, as well as continuing to include provisions for low-income housing. Raise (and in some areas eliminate) building-height restrictions. Also, residents in the area no longer get a veto on new construction projects. As long as a building proposal follows the rules, it gets a rubber stamp. No discussion.

2. Repeal prop 13 for rental properties, and only allow it to apply to an owner's primary residence (obviously this is more difficult since prop 13 is state and not city law). This recognizes that owning a home gives you an illiquid asset, and fluctuations in property taxes (especially in an area like SF with strongly rising property values) can cause people to need to move. Homeownership should at least still offer that kind of security.

3. Repeal rent control city-wide and replace it with a gov't subsidy tied to renters' income. This subsidy can be funded with extra tax revenue from #2, and can likely be phased out over several years as rents stabilize and drop. I expect that rents will initially rise, but will start to lower again after a year or two under the new rules, and even more after a few more years as #1 reduces (and hopefully eliminates) the deficit in the housing supply. The (temporary) subsidy protects existing tenants until there's enough housing to support people of any economic status.

4. This is more subjective, but: make it more attractive for landlords to buy out their tenants (or just keep them) than to use shady practices like finding reclassification loopholes and bullying by doing the bare minimum required by law to maintain their properties. I'm not sure of the exact mechanisms to do this, but incentives should be aligned so that landlords want to keep good, steady, reliable tenants, even if new tenants might net them some extra cash. Basically we want to create an environment where landlords are mostly happy to keep their current tenants, but while tenants are also not afraid of the prospect of needing to move.

Is that helpful enough?

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#619
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because by creating a scenario that encourages assholes, all the not-assholes get pushed out. And thus, by being short-sighted nice people, you wind up with a city of assholes. As a landlord, deciding to raise rent on your units a modest amount, instead of a financially crippling amount, does not put you in a position to be "pushed out" than landlords who choose to be greedy. Your costs have not increased such that y…

While this post has some good points it lacks an understanding of capitalism. Mainly that the prices charged are in relation to what the market can bear and NOT just what the costs are. A real estate investor is (just like any investor) is looking to maximize profits based on 1. What tenants can afford and 2. What competitors are charging. Raising rent only works if there are customers willing to pay the increase whi…

I don't think the problem is that I don't understand capitalism; I just believe that the absolute application of it can be harmful in some cases.

I'll start by saying that I do believe that capitalism is pretty much the best we have right now, and has allowed for greater prosperity than other economic systems up to this point.

However, I do think that the public good needs to be taken into account and act as a balance for capitalism sometimes. Housing is a good example for this, as I don't believe the public good is served by allowing property owners to charge as much as they can. Call that socialist if you want; so be it... I do have some socialist leanings.

If we were to repeal rent control tomorrow, rents would shoot up across the board. Formerly rent-controlled apartments would see their rents go up like crazy. Formerly non-rent-controlled apartments might see rent increases slow, but they would almost certainly not drop, at least not for a year or two. Demand is still high (and is still getting higher), and the bay area increasingly houses people who really want to live in SF, and are able to afford higher rents. SF is limited in land area, so, without a massive increase in the housing supply, we're limited in population expansion. With the average & median rent increasing, many people at the low end will be displaced. SF will become a place where only high earners can live, which means most service workers will need to move out of the city and be bused in, or drive, or just fail to find jobs due to lack of transportation options.

That last bit is an example of why I think the public good needs to (through regulation) balance out capitalism sometimes. Lower-income people being unable to live in SF is IMO a bad thing. Increasing the number of cars/buses on the road is a bad thing; causing people to live farther away from their jobs is economically wasteful. Also note that many of the high-income people moving into SF in this scenario will be moving to SF while keeping their peninsula/south bay jobs, further increasing the commute problem.

Definitely agree that regulation and new laws do sometimes form a feedback loop as unintended consequences and loopholes are discovered. But I don't think that's an excuse not to try, because a lightly- or un-regulated market is not going to help, either.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#620
post #575
post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it even matter why? Of course it does! A big part of whether or not someone is an asshole is about intent. What if the landlord wants somewhere for their aging grandmother to live so they can care for her? Would that still make them an asshole? I suspect you'll say yes, because they're looking to push someone out of their home. The Ellis Act provides for landlords who want to take a property off the rental marke…

> The idea that landowners should be allowed to extract every bit of profit possible out of land -- a public, limited good -- no matter what the consequences, is absolutely reprehensible to me. And this idea has led to strict rent control, which in turn has led to NIMBYism, which together have led to the clusterfuck that is San Francisco's housing market. Privileged groups act first and foremost to preserve their pri…

In short, you need to consider that attempting to put your ideals into policy may have resulted in creating the problems you fear.

That's an excellent point and is something I'll try to reflect on.

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