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Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

theatlantic.com

51–60 of 71 posts

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#51
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say in your profile that you're a graduate student, so I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that because the software is online, a high school student can do research? Any high school student can download free software. That's not a question. Almost none can understand the math (I say "almost" because I'm sure there's some child prodigy out there who can; the exception makes the rule), and fewer s…

> Almost none can understand the math See this is the point I disagree with. I think plenty of high school students can understand the math necessary to do cutting-edge scientific research. No need for child prodigies at all. Maybe for work that's Nobel prize winning or something, but your average run-of-the-mill PhD student? I imagine tons of 14-18 year olds are capable of it. I was writing my own Metropolis light t…

A big problem for high school students is to know what is cutting-edge research. I agree that knowing the math is rarely the problem. But I agree with timr's statement that "no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research." (We're excluding the very rare exceptions, like timr's example of high school students who have been working in a lab for years.)

There are two "cans" here; a high school student can do graduate-level scientific research from a techniques standpoint, like implementing a program for X or solving equation Y. But very few can do the interesting hypothesis generation aspect of graduate school.

I actually started in MD, though from a physics/math/CS background. I didn't understand the biology at all, and while I implemented a parallelized version of CHARMM back in 1992 (using PVM 2.x, no less), so was certainly capable of understanding the math and doing cutting-edge scientific research, I couldn't have come up with that research topic on my own.

Being unable to come up with an interesting research topic :) I left MD, did bioinformatics for a bit, and for the last 16 years I've been doing cheminformatics. The first 10 years was as a practitioner, and the last few years as an actual researcher, albeit self-funded. Implementation and research are different things. The younger me could have done all of the programming I do now, and the math is no more advanced than what's taught at the junior level of college, but didn't know the history of the field to identify what was actually cutting-edge vs. a technique described 20 years previous in the literature.

The current me, now with decades of experience in writing molecule-oriented software, and having read many articles across the 75 year history of the field, has found where there are interesting areas for new research.

The article says "students [with two exceptions] struggle with their projects because they lack inquiry skills, motivation, and an ability to reflect on what they’ve learned." I'm not sure I could convince the high school version of me to understand that subgraph isomorphism coupled with subgraph enumeration could be use to implement a groupwise maximum common subgraph, which can be used to identify a common scaffold for 2D depiction of a cluster of structures. There are a lot of intermediate steps to put it all together.

(In fact, I implemented this problem in the late 1990s, using a straight-forward backtracking algorithm from the 1980s. My newer version from 4 years ago is not only more clever and sophisticated, it's also a new algorithm.)

Nor should we expect a high school student to dig through the papers from the 1970s, which is the last time something like this approach was taken, figure out why it was put aside for several decades, and identify its connection to frequent subgraph mining. But it is something that we would expect from a graduate student.

FWIW, my most advanced high school science project was to build a radio telescope from an old clock radio and makeshift Yagi antenna. I managed to detect the sun. I also wanted to build a mass spectrometer, but couldn't get better than 1mm of vacuum out of an A/C vacuum. For government class, on the topic of the Strategic Defense Initiative, I built a railgun that could shoot about 2 inches using a few spools of wire, some old relays, and a borrowed power supply. Had I access to a school labs, mentors, and more than about $20 to spend, I could probably have had a much better science project.

Instead, I was part of the "vast majority of kids who get few resources beyond their parents." (Which came in handy when I wanted to get the glass cut for bottle I used for my mass spec. The owner of the glass store knew my grandfather from when both lived in Cuba, and cut the holes for free.)

I don't think any of those projects helped my greater understanding of science or doing research, which was the supposed goal of the science fair in the first place.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#52
This was rather timely, for me. I have been struggling with the assumption that my daughter's science fair was due to me, rather than her. I was very proud of her work/effort, and wanted to share that with friends/family, but many of the reactions were, essentially, "well, it was really you who won". And that couldn't be further from truth.

Now, one reason, I assume for this reaction, is due to two things: 1) they know I'm science nerd (I have a degree in physics), and 2) she's really young, but won for the whole school (she's in the second grade, and won 1st place for the school, and her own grade). They say this, without even knowing what she did or how she did it. To me, the entire point of the fair is to get kids AND parents involved in science, while exposing kids to the scientific process. So, to me, I get my daughter to do as much of her project as she can. And even things she can't do, I still get her to try, even when it takes her a long time (like typing her slides that get glued to her board - she types with one finger pecking very slowly). But she loved the work, and felt like she was learning something. Her experiment was incredibly simple (literally a cup of water and a timer), and she thought of the procedure herself, and the question she wanted to answer was hers.

But, even after I explain this to someone, they still feel my daughter was unfairly advantaged, or at the very least, was given some better than average coaching, because of my background/experience. To a certain extent, I kind of agree on that point. I do try really hard to explain the concepts to her in a way that an 8 year old can understand. But, ultimately, it all comes down to her. The idea and experiment were hers.

When I walked the gym and saw the other experiments/projects, many were highly decorated and beautiful (my daughter's had no decoration, just a title and the required sections with text in her own words). And many experiments had rather elaborate processes, and/or complex devices. Sadly, I too thought that many parents were at work, rather than the kids, even knowing how much I made my daughter do on her own. But it all seems to come down to the kids. And, some here have mentioned, the judges are pretty good at detecting BS. So although a perusal of the fair wouldn't make it obvious which kids did their own work, or how much they really learned, and that's where the assessment of the judges has to be taken into account.

And it was that that made me feel better about my daughter's work. I was proud of her, because I knew that it was she who did it, and was glad the judges were able to see it. But I totally know that many parents do over-involve themselves to the point the kids don't learn anything. It seems a difficult balance to strike, but it does seem possible to distinguish the extremes.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#53
post #25

The Simpsons noticed this phenomenon and proposed a solution 20 years ago. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/79/78/1d/7978... "And the award goes to the kids who clearly didn't have any help from their parents"

I'm right in the middle of this. I have two sons (11 and 8 yo). Yesterday was the cub scouts Pinewood derby. The "kids" each build a 4-wheeled car out of a pinewood block. There are various rules that need to be adhered to. I resisted putting my stamp on the cars, but most of the cars in that derby looked like they were machined by Ferruccio Lamborghini. My kids' cars looked like someone had vomited on a block of pin…

I'll share my first science experiment that I was happy about. I came up with it in a college class, so well after my science fair days, but it might be something your kids could do.

There was pathway with a circular fountain in the middle. The path goes around the fountain. People have the choice of going left or going right. On the outside of the path are benches. My question was, will people avoid walking near someone sitting on the bench?

I still remember the numbers. I only measured it when a person was walking alone on the path. If no one sits then 90% of the people veer right to go around the fountain. (Clearly I want to re-do this in the UK.) When I sat on the bench on the right side, only 80% of the people would take the right. 10% of the people changed their path to avoid me, sitting on the bench, reading a book.

This is the sort of observational research that your eldest could easily do. Observational research the basis for a lot of research, though often overlooked in favor of flashier technology and lab equipment. The author of one book I read - I believe he was a field biologist - wrote that he gets asked how to encourage someone's child to get involved in science, and he suggests to buy a hand-held click counter. http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/revolving-doors/ is an example of how test which sign is the best way to get more people to use a revolving door than a regular door, with the goal of reducing the heating bill.

Down this way also lies eccentricities, like John Trinkaus, who won an IgNobel Prize http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners#... for publishing reports like "percentage of young people wear baseball caps with the peak facing to the rear rather than to the front". That's pure observational studies, with no experimental variable or control. It won't do well in a science fair.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#54
post #47
post #3

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and…

"It's just one more example of the perpetuation of wealth across generations." You say that as if it's a bad thing. The thing you seem to be complaining about is one of the wonderful things about parenting. I.e. to impart/share/teach/give what you have accumulated over your life. Whether that is something physical, or intangible such as knowledge, makes no difference.

I agree with this. I struggled at first (with my daughter's performance in a recent science fair), but realized that my experience was a gift I could give to her in the form of a better-than-average ability to explain seemingly complicated ideas to an 8 year old. And to provide somewhat expert guidance on the scientific method itself.

To a certain extent, this happens in many other ways at schools as well. I mean, those kids with very athletic, or sports oriented, parents, may be more driven or have better guidance in athletic endeavors that would my kids. But we seem not to care about that (until the parents are screaming during a game).

And likewise with music, or art, and so on. So I think I've decided not to get too concerned about how others might view my daughter's work on her project. It would be unfair (to her) if I decided not to give her explanations that were the benefit of my own experience.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#55
post #6

Wow a lot of parental angst there. Lets take a paragraph out of that which summarizes this: "Last year my son, who was in third grade at the time, came home with a sheet of paper from his school that listed three categories for appropriate projects: developing a hypothesis and conducting an experiment to test that theory, inventing something new, or researching 'something specific.' The guidelines listed 'whales' as…

"The sad part about this article is not that Science Fairs are not fair, its that parents don't know what science is and so cannot help there children develop a sense of wonder and discovery."

Very spot on.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#56
post #3

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and…

Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research.

My experience indicates otherwise. It's rare, to be sure, but it does happen.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#57
I stopped reading when the author basically implied that making a trifold poster about whales was too much to ask of her third grader because it would require using the internet.

There are probably a lot of problems with science fairs, particularly at higher grade levels. But her example is pretty terrible.

My 2nd grade science fair project was making a book about the planets. I chose it because I thought space was cool.

All it involved was checking out space books from the school library and then putting a page for each planet in a binder with facts like how big the planet is or how far from the sun along with a hand drawn picture (ie a circle with moderately correct colors). I think there were some extra pages for the Sun and a random moon or two.

It could have easily been a trifold poster with most of the same stuff. I had loads of fun because I liked learning anything about space. It could have easily been about whales or something else if that's what I was interested in. But all it took was some help from the school librarian: "I want to do my science fair projects on planets. Do you have any books about planets?"

The next year I found a book of experiments in the school library and did one of them and explained it on a trifold. It was fun and not rocket science. I think most of the "experiments" in the book required stuff like rubber bands, paper, and straws.

I'm not clear why finding a few books in the school library and making a trifold poster is a headache for an elementary school student.

After that I never attended a school with a science fair, but I think it was perfectly reasonable the few years I did participate.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#58
Anecdotal evidence to the contrary: I was from an unprivileged background growing up in a dying blue collar steel town outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania that used to be the company town for ALCOA.

I was that one weird kid that was really into computers instead of football like everyone else. I taught myself C++ programming, OpenGL, and matrix math in high school because I wanted to develop 3D games.

I convinced my high school principal to let me enter a flight simulator that I wrote during summer break of sophomore year into the Pittsburgh Regional Science Fair (at my own expense), and I won. I remember standing on stage sticking out like a sore thumb from the usual snooty, upper class high schools that everyone knew from around the area.

That day, I met a robotics professor at CMU who was one of the judges, and that introduction, along with sending a DVD video of my work to a few top universities with my college application ended up changing my life.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#59
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say in your profile that you're a graduate student, so I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that because the software is online, a high school student can do research? Any high school student can download free software. That's not a question. Almost none can understand the math (I say "almost" because I'm sure there's some child prodigy out there who can; the exception makes the rule), and fewer s…

> Almost none can understand the math See this is the point I disagree with. I think plenty of high school students can understand the math necessary to do cutting-edge scientific research. No need for child prodigies at all. Maybe for work that's Nobel prize winning or something, but your average run-of-the-mill PhD student? I imagine tons of 14-18 year olds are capable of it. I was writing my own Metropolis light t…

Can understand versus could understand. One implies current background while the other implies potential ability. Given that many high school seniors graduate with only a basic grasp of Alg I, you're probably placing too high a value on the normalcy of your own experiences.

I understand this because I once ranked in the top 10 in my state for mathematics when I was a kid. So I potentially could have understood specialized maths if they were explained to me, sure, but where would I have gotten that exposure?

When I was in school, there was no Google Scholar or Wolfram or edX. We had EBSCOhost, but the librarian only knew how to pull up old issues of Forbes and Sports Illustrated. My generation's great boon was that we would grow up to live in a world where we would have free access to educational materials and other wonderful information over the internet.

I'm not making this an argument about privilege, but we should deeply consider whether our resources and backgrounds were so typical as we believe them to have been that any child put in our place would have had our abilities.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#60
I've judged at the local school science fair in California, at the Intel ISEF a bunch of years ago, and I was also part of the organization that arranges the national science fair (Utstallningen Unga Forskare) in Sweden. Hence, I think I have some perspective on this topic.

The American science fairs are a completely different thing from what we did in Sweden. First, the Swedish one is strictly for 17-19 year olds. But more importantly, the Swedish one is not a competition -- the whole idea is that you do this voluntarily, because you have some project you are excited about, and because you get feedback about your project from real scientists.

What purpose does it serve to make it a competition? Isn't the idea to encourage the idea that science and engineering is fun and interesting? Making it a competition just serves to accentuate the issues mentioned in this article: giving an extreme advantage to kids who have access to professional equipment and personal mentoring.

And the whole thing about doing "original science" is ludicrous, especially when it's applied to middle school kids. What matters is whether the outcome is known to the student, not to the world. Kids engage in authentic inquiry every day, and whether the topic is "original science" or not matters not one bit.

If the choice is between the kid who investigated how different rubber bands shoot rocks of different sizes, but did it by his or herself vs. the one who was hand held through some fancy-sounding project at their parents lab, my choice will go to the former every time.

And yes, maybe there are super prodigies out there who actually mastered a research field enough to not only be able to do cutting edge research but also to know enough to pick a topic that is as high school students. I'm not worried about those kids, they don't need encouragement.

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