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“Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

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Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#241
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't think we were talking about "holy law" and afterlife punishment. In that sense, I guess you're correct. There's still lots of flaws in the theory, for instance morality has changed--slavery was not outlawed by holy laws, and seemingly was considered okay morally. I don't personally equate legality with anything except written law enforced by people on earth, typically a government. Even in older times, "eart…

Those traditions and societies specifically named The Law (translated from the local language) as what you are describing as holy law. You still haven't described what moral is, or how one has an obligation to it.

"morals" are arbitrary goalposts that people move around for their own convenience and gratification.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither gasoline nor food are "free markets", even approximately. Government actively intervenes to influence the supply and price of gasoline, and actively intervenes in food, subsidizing both production and consumption. So, if whatever is being done for gas and food works well, that's not an endorsement of the free market.

I think the point was that no one is asking for price controls in those markets, despite the fact that we all need those goods to function - not that food/gas represent the text book cases of market equilibrium.

Indeed, just that it's ridiculous to say that supply and demand "don't work" for inelastic goods.

But I feel like people are focusing on the weaker argument, about gas and food, and ignoring the far stronger argument, that the vast majority of this country somehow gets by just fine without rent control.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Landlords can diversify their properties, renters only get one. Everyone needs to live somewhere, nobody needs to be a landlord. 2) You've missed my point about moving costs. Even when the market favors renters, the lease renewal negotiation favors landlords. This is because moving costs time and money payable to third parties. As a result, the landlord can charge higher rents for renewals than they can for new le…

1 - first, so what? second, nobody needs to live "there". They can move to a different rental. 2 - moving isn't "that" expensive. It's a pain in the ass, but you can do it in a weekend with a few hundred dollar moving truck. You might be able to raise rates a few percent, but you can't just move them significantly above market.

> It's a pain in the ass, but you can do it in a weekend with a few hundred dollar moving truck.

Let me guess: no kids, haven't lived in your place very long, don't know your neighbors, don't have family nearby, don't live in a city with substantial pressure on housing, and you make over the median income.

> You might be able to raise rates a few percent, but you can't just move them significantly above market.

That you can't imagine something doesn't always mean it's not possible. It can mean the world is more complex than you expect.

I'm glad that you have such an easy and comfortable life that moving is no big deal, but that's just not true for everyone on the planet.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't make the "let the landlord make more money" argument, I would be making the "rent control is a significant distortion of the market which hurts both renters and tenants in the long run" argument. Housing absolutely is a social priority, and while rent control is definitely a well intentioned attempted and addressing the issue, a more effective approach would be to build more - not restrict the price signal…

Vacancy decontrol = new construction can have whatever rent they want. So preventing a landlord from screwing over the current tenant does not prevent housing from meeting demand. New construction does face many other issues, though. NIMBY's, parking regulations, zoning, etc.

Rent control makes people become NIMBYs.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this argument. _Quality_ housing seems to me, to be a normal good, because when income increases the demand for such housing increases. Even crappy places in SF seem to be quality housing. Whether or not there are class issues, or your house is sentimental is irrelevant. Edit: typo

Apparently "normal good" is an economic technical term, and apparently you are using that technical definition here and not the normal use of "normal". I have no idea why you'd do that; as you point out, that technical term bears no relation to what I'm talking about.

What you're talking about is the idea that economics shouldn't apply because there are a lot more emotions involved in house than in most other markets. Do I need to point out that that is silly, or is it sufficiently self-evident that economics applies anyway?

The real answer tends to be building enough housing for everyone. That also tends to be politically unpalatable, because the people with all the emotional attachments want their neighborhoods frozen in amber. So low-income people get pushed out by increasing rent and high-income people move in.

Pick your poison, really.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#247
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently "normal good" is an economic technical term, and apparently you are using that technical definition here and not the normal use of "normal". I have no idea why you'd do that; as you point out, that technical term bears no relation to what I'm talking about.

Words have meanings. In the context of a discussion of economic activity, you really have "no idea" why someone would assume you were using the economic meaning of "normal good?

Yes, because that reading obviously conflicts with what I wrote. Words do have meanings, but they have multiple meanings. If one reading makes no sense, skilled readers will try another.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#248

I find it interesting that we can, with almost 95%+ success, determine who on these threads owns Real Estate in San Francisco, versus those who don't. There are admittedly some comments that are in the margins, but the number of false positives/negatives is probably pretty close to zero. In particular, those who rant about the evils of uncontrolled rental markets are 99% likely to not own real estate in San Francisco…

>Should we place any value in ethical principles which are so immediately seen to be self-serving?

Are you also including those who own property in SF also included in this? They too would immediately change their tune if they had to sell the property and begin renting.

One party in this made the conscious choice to buy property with these restrictions on it, and receives the benefits of being a property owner (Equity, income from rent, etc) whereas the renter is only receiving benefits intended to protect them from price gouging.

I currently rent because I'm not sure if I want to keep living in my current city, and don't want to go through the troubles of having to sell property if I do decide to move. The last few years, my landlord has raised rent more than would be possible under a SF style rent control. I don't particularly care, because I can afford it and if it reaches a level where I do not think it is a fair price for what I receive, I will move elsewhere. I have no vested interest in this, as I have no desire to rent or buy property in SF.

But your comment seems just as biased as those you are singling out for wanting to protect their own interests.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Landlords can diversify their properties, renters only get one. Everyone needs to live somewhere, nobody needs to be a landlord. 2) You've missed my point about moving costs. Even when the market favors renters, the lease renewal negotiation favors landlords. This is because moving costs time and money payable to third parties. As a result, the landlord can charge higher rents for renewals than they can for new le…

1 - first, so what? second, nobody needs to live "there". They can move to a different rental. 2 - moving isn't "that" expensive. It's a pain in the ass, but you can do it in a weekend with a few hundred dollar moving truck. You might be able to raise rates a few percent, but you can't just move them significantly above market.

> moving isn't "that" expensive. It's a pain in the ass, but you can do it in a weekend with a few hundred dollar moving truck

Care to show me a single company that would allow me to rent a truck for a cross country move for less than four hundred dollars?

Go ahead. Take your time.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#250
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. In reality, in most transactions, both parties profit due to the fact that there is no fixed concept of "worth." The apple that you bought from your grocer for 50 cents was valued at 40 cents by him and 60 cents by you.

Why would I value an apple higher than what a grocer is willing to sell? I wouldn't.

Because you bought it? Clearly it has more value to you than the money.
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