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Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

theatlantic.com

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Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#11

Post by ars »

VLM wrote: post #9

This quote shows something really bad, although it wasn't explicitly discussed: "But at the three fairs I’ve attended over the last several years, the unknown rarely makes an appearance. At my son's fair last year, at least a handful of students did the popular "experiment" in which the "scientist" waters plants with three different liquids—one of which is typically soda or detergent—to determine which is best for pl…

> I put 10 seconds into it and got the idea of pond water, fresh chlorinated tap water, and collected rain water?

You would not see any effect, not with just 3 plants.

It's part of the problem - any effect obvious enough to show up with the small resources of a child, is also pretty obvious.

I would do different: Have kids reproduce famous known experiments, and get rid of this useless obsession with hypothesis first. Just do a "hey, that's interesting" type experiments.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#12

Post by ars »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #4
droopyEyelids wrote: post #2

I feel like it's impossible for many people to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't fair. To me, that's the basic assumption that you have to start with. Afterwords, you're free to figure out how to make things more fair, but if you don't start out understanding that things will always be messed up, you're left with a senseless rant. From what I got through it seems like the author was upset that some parents ca…

Why bother with proxies and not just do bank accounts fair? The whole idea of making children compete is questionable, and once you bring money in it completely loses reason to exist.

At the fairs I've gone to they compete on the written portion, and on how well they answer the question, i.e. how well they know the material.

The experiment itself doesn't matter as much.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#13

Post by VLM »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #2

I feel like it's impossible for many people to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't fair. To me, that's the basic assumption that you have to start with. Afterwords, you're free to figure out how to make things more fair, but if you don't start out understanding that things will always be messed up, you're left with a senseless rant. From what I got through it seems like the author was upset that some parents ca…

On paper the kids do the work, but in practice, its more "what can they get away with".

I made it to the state region levels as a kid with a lame project, but I did it all myself, and I remember walking the aisles thinking to myself, "I can probably win against that kid, but there's no way I can win against that kid's Dad who obviously did all the work"

The pinewood Derby in scouts kind of suffers from a similar problem, "who's dad has the best woodworking shop"

This might be a useful life lesson, in that on a very large scale the first thing you learn in business, politics, law is whats right or legal doesn't matter, its all in what you can get away with and who your parents are, and the top players tend to be better at getting away with things and won the genetic lottery. A meritocracy ... of crooks. And that's an education all in itself that will provide a lifetime of benefits once understood at an early age. So I'm not necessarily seeing a problem with education kids.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#14

Post by VLM »

ars wrote: post #11
VLM wrote: post #9

This quote shows something really bad, although it wasn't explicitly discussed: "But at the three fairs I’ve attended over the last several years, the unknown rarely makes an appearance. At my son's fair last year, at least a handful of students did the popular "experiment" in which the "scientist" waters plants with three different liquids—one of which is typically soda or detergent—to determine which is best for pl…

> I put 10 seconds into it and got the idea of pond water, fresh chlorinated tap water, and collected rain water? You would not see any effect, not with just 3 plants. It's part of the problem - any effect obvious enough to show up with the small resources of a child, is also pretty obvious. I would do different: Have kids reproduce famous known experiments, and get rid of this useless obsession with hypothesis first…

True, would be a learning experience to break out some basic sampling theory (do 10 bean seeds not 1) and break out the digital calipers to get some precision rather than "eh looks bigger" Or... the kitchen dietary scale. I can go to 1/10th of gram on mine and that might work.

Also a stealth observation is the hidden assumption that a negative or null result means the experiment was a failure.

Personally I've got a gut feeling that given fertilizer runoff problems, the beans sprouts grown in pond water would grow faster unless the pond was unimaginably pristine. A bored kid could settle this interesting discussion via experiment... better than being stuck with "water, tide, or pepsi, which do plants crave??"

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#15

Post by therealdrag0 »

VLM wrote: post #9

This quote shows something really bad, although it wasn't explicitly discussed: "But at the three fairs I’ve attended over the last several years, the unknown rarely makes an appearance. At my son's fair last year, at least a handful of students did the popular "experiment" in which the "scientist" waters plants with three different liquids—one of which is typically soda or detergent—to determine which is best for pl…

Yeah, they need to be encouraged to ask questions about what happens in their lives. Stuff that they genuinely care about.

For example, the other day I was peeing and though, "Is there less splatter by aiming my pee above the water line or below the waterline?" If I was Richard Feynman, I'd probably actually do an experiment. Now that may not be allowed in a school fair, but it's an example of a trivial everyday thing that one can wonder about, and design an experiment about, yet maybe hasn't been established as fact (like plants like water).

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#16

Post by LeonRobrotsky »

wyager wrote: post #10
timr wrote: post #3

I've been disgusted for years by the parade of "winners" of the major science fairs, most of whom have privileged access to research labs, wealth, or both. Because, protip: no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. When you see that, it means that the student had special access to a lab that was already doing the work. And yet, year after year, these folks are given lucrative scholarships and…

> no high school student can do graduate-level scientific research. That's not true. I've seen better (original) science fair work than some PhD theses. It's just 1/1000 students that can pull it off.

Such as?

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#17

Post by needleofjustice »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #6

Wow a lot of parental angst there. Lets take a paragraph out of that which summarizes this: "Last year my son, who was in third grade at the time, came home with a sheet of paper from his school that listed three categories for appropriate projects: developing a hypothesis and conducting an experiment to test that theory, inventing something new, or researching 'something specific.' The guidelines listed 'whales' as…

Yup, I agree! If we want to point fingers, lets point them at people of influence who should know better. But authors of internet articles are fairly low on that totem. Leaders in the sciences, public-policymakers, educators and marketers should all be held accountable for the public perception of science.

On one hand, science should be taught as an art. It is a creative endeavor, and when well-taught it engages the mind naturally. Why aren't we asking these kids what interests them and helping them apply the appropriate science?

On the other hand, science is incredibly useful and necessary to understand the world today, and fix the bugs in our social systems that otherwise are or will cause human suffering.

I think finding a handful of heroes to fix all our problems is dumb. We are at a point where fulfilling the greatest potential of all humans should be the goal of any thoughtful person.

Let people fix their own problems, but also let them borrow your tools. And science is an amazingly cool set of tools for fixing things.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#18

Post by thaumasiotes »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #15
VLM wrote: post #9

This quote shows something really bad, although it wasn't explicitly discussed: "But at the three fairs I’ve attended over the last several years, the unknown rarely makes an appearance. At my son's fair last year, at least a handful of students did the popular "experiment" in which the "scientist" waters plants with three different liquids—one of which is typically soda or detergent—to determine which is best for pl…

Yeah, they need to be encouraged to ask questions about what happens in their lives. Stuff that they genuinely care about. For example, the other day I was peeing and though, "Is there less splatter by aiming my pee above the water line or below the waterline?" If I was Richard Feynman, I'd probably actually do an experiment. Now that may not be allowed in a school fair, but it's an example of a trivial everyday thin…

Below the waterline. All you need to do to learn this is pee with bare legs. ;p

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#19

Post by protomyth »

"Even the easiest of these items—researching a topic—is nearly impossible for a child who hasn’t yet mastered the ability to browse the Internet. (As a parent and the founder of a tech company, I’ve observed that in order to browse the Internet one needs to know how to scan the screen, differentiate between actual content and ads, and evaluate the trustworthiness of a resource—elements that are far out of reach of most 8-year-olds.)"

Given your child a book (or ebook I guess). Wow, just wow. Has the disappearance of things like encyclopedias increased the barrier of entry to knowledge?

Science fairs (or "Imagination Fairs" as they seem to be called) could be fun, but I get the feeling this is a lot of parents ruining something cool to be competitive.

Re: Science Fairs Aren't So Fair

#20

Post by spiritplumber »

VLM wrote: post #13
droopyEyelids wrote: post #2

I feel like it's impossible for many people to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't fair. To me, that's the basic assumption that you have to start with. Afterwords, you're free to figure out how to make things more fair, but if you don't start out understanding that things will always be messed up, you're left with a senseless rant. From what I got through it seems like the author was upset that some parents ca…

On paper the kids do the work, but in practice, its more "what can they get away with". I made it to the state region levels as a kid with a lame project, but I did it all myself, and I remember walking the aisles thinking to myself, "I can probably win against that kid, but there's no way I can win against that kid's Dad who obviously did all the work" The pinewood Derby in scouts kind of suffers from a similar prob…

That's not the sort of lesson I want kids to learn. Including my kids.

I want kids, including my kids, to learn that life is fair and if they don't see it be fair, they have to sit down and fix that.

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