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Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

kateheddleston.com

51–60 of 63 posts

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#51

As entrepreneur, with experience as manager and engineer I could tell you that arguments and discussion are probably the most useful thing for any company. More than two interesting people, with different backgrounds and beliefs should always argue. It is a great thing for any institution. Arguments discard weak ideas before the market does. If the market does you have already spent enormous amount of money. This sho…

PD: Some people will find the story of the atom fascinating because the atom knowledge comes from "Argument culture":

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1fix14_bbc-atom-1-the-clas...

People like Edison getting mad with a young genius that was ALSO right. All of those physicist fighting each other using arguments.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#53

Frankly, that's a terrible article, full of sexist stereotypes. She is reading too much into it. Just briefly: Sometimes people argue because they genuinely think their favorite tool is superior, and want to help others be more efficient. Sometimes people speak loudly because they are genuinely excited about something. I doubt there is any authority or respect to win by good arguing about technology (especially on on…

Your comment is an example of the stuff she's describing... It can be broken down structurally as follows: - Righteous indignation - Example with sample size of 1 - Half-hearted praise - Jocular, superior tone - Name calling Zinger

No, it isn't. Because my main point, which you missed, was "don't take these arguments too seriously, because they are not". They are basically child's play. You don't think children fighting each other are going to grow up criminals, do you? This is the same thing.

But everything I wrote was honest. I, being a leftist anarchist, am probably more for equal and harmonic society than the author is. For instance, I wish there was no authority from power, and the companies were run democratically.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#54

Frankly, that's a terrible article, full of sexist stereotypes. She is reading too much into it. Just briefly: Sometimes people argue because they genuinely think their favorite tool is superior, and want to help others be more efficient. Sometimes people speak loudly because they are genuinely excited about something. I doubt there is any authority or respect to win by good arguing about technology (especially on on…

There are two different words in English too right? "Debate" and "argument", the former implying a civil one, the other one meaning where people are angry at each other. "Debata" is even just one letter away from "debate" The article is not talking about constructive debate. The article is talking about emotional dominance. Not a question of debating the merits of one thing and holding a position and defending it aga…

If she wrote what you did, then she might have a point. (My understanding of English really is that an argument can mean debate as well, or maybe confusingly, the debate consists of arguments.) If you're talking about people who have power over another, that's a different situation. But then, that wouldn't exactly fit with majority of "vim vs. emacs" type discussions I have ever had, even online, so the argument (see :-)) breaks down.

In cases where you are arguing with peers, I think people back off in debates in cases where their own argument is not very strong. If I tell someone strong in Java, say, let's do it this way, and he (loudly) says "no way", without explanation, I may think, "OK, this guy knows Java really well, I respect his authority on the matter, then probably my idea is not very good". And I may decide to drop it, not worry about it, and do more useful things. If I think I have a strong argument, I may pursue it and let him explain his reasoning. This is actually not submitting to authority, it's respecting it. If I think he doesn't know Java, I would always pursue. It may be sometimes wrong to do it, but it's also very efficient most of the time, not to have endless debates with people who know what they are doing. That's why it's always a call, and if you want to be really professional, you should not be afraid to pursue a good argument, regardless of what the other party is doing. (And if you work for a boss/authority who doesn't recognize it, I suggest change of job.)

I work for American company, and I can tell you, American act far more "professionally" than Czechs, and sometimes it is indeed really nice. Czechs are also a bit more honest - if they feel something is wrong, they will tell you straight. So trust me, what she describes has not much to do with competitivness.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#55

Frankly, that's a terrible article, full of sexist stereotypes. She is reading too much into it. Just briefly: Sometimes people argue because they genuinely think their favorite tool is superior, and want to help others be more efficient. Sometimes people speak loudly because they are genuinely excited about something. I doubt there is any authority or respect to win by good arguing about technology (especially on on…

Your comment is an example of the stuff she's describing... It can be broken down structurally as follows: - Righteous indignation - Example with sample size of 1 - Half-hearted praise - Jocular, superior tone - Name calling Zinger

Actually, I think this video sums up the main problem with the article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8HdOHrc3OQ

Would you say the guy in the video is aggressive? He certainly speaks loudly and authoritatively, and uses a lot of emotional words and shortcuts.

Of course the answer is no. The article confuses, quite thoroughly, aggression and passion. That's why I said "she's reading too much into it", because she reads "aggression" where she should just probably read "passion".

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is an example of the stuff she's describing... It can be broken down structurally as follows: - Righteous indignation - Example with sample size of 1 - Half-hearted praise - Jocular, superior tone - Name calling Zinger

Actually, I think this video sums up the main problem with the article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8HdOHrc3OQ Would you say the guy in the video is aggressive? He certainly speaks loudly and authoritatively, and uses a lot of emotional words and shortcuts. Of course the answer is no. The article confuses, quite thoroughly, aggression and passion. That's why I said "she's reading too much into it", because she r…

The speech in the video is political propaganda speech. Not only does it use emotional words but it uses value-laden words extensively... both to reinforce the character of the speaker and to underscore the speaker's message. The speaker wishes to come across as passionate because of the persuasive power of that kind of tone/tempo.

If a company's engineering culture is anything like that I'd be worried.

> The article confuses, quite thoroughly, aggression and passion.

Not necessarily. The speech doesn't have to be deliberately aggressive to still create the negative effects that stifle rationality and make it more difficult to rationally analyze the problem/decision.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is an example of the stuff she's describing... It can be broken down structurally as follows: - Righteous indignation - Example with sample size of 1 - Half-hearted praise - Jocular, superior tone - Name calling Zinger

No, it isn't. Because my main point, which you missed, was "don't take these arguments too seriously, because they are not". They are basically child's play. You don't think children fighting each other are going to grow up criminals, do you? This is the same thing. But everything I wrote was honest. I, being a leftist anarchist, am probably more for equal and harmonic society than the author is. For instance, I wish…

> I wish there was no authority from power, and the companies were run democratically.

This makes sense b/c you seem to find the demagoguery in the video you linked appealing. While it is important to advocate for a position in a technical discussion, the ideal outcome is not emotional persuasion (as in politics) but a wider rational understanding among members of the group.

> don't take these arguments too seriously, because they are not

I think it depends. Usually the people whose tactics cause intimidation are not all that aware of it. Yes in an ideal world we could all undertake vociferous argument and have all participants contribute to their full potential -- but unfortunately an open forum argument culture will easily defer to the loudest or most intimidating voice even if the words coming out are not the smartest or most rational.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is possible to have absolutely, completely emotion-less arguments. No, it is not easy, or particularly common. If you truly feel like you & your work environment do have such pure-truth-seeking arguments: great . However, please take some time to really critically evaluate & test that assertion -- the people who are most at home in such an environment are the people least likely to notice its negative effects…

I guess I didn't mean to imply that I live in a world where everyone can have these "pure-truth" arguments. In fact, it's a rare and often rewarding experience if it does happen. I also know that there's a time and a place for debating and it requires consent of all parties. It also requires that some value is being generated, if we're talking about debating in the workplace. I guess I am having trouble appreciating…

Mmm, I didn't get 1) from the article at all. Rather, I got "men and women can be equally aggressive, but women are punished (socially & professionally) more for it than men". Re: 2) -- not the whole article was about gender. It was about the negative effects of having an argumentative workplace overall.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I think this video sums up the main problem with the article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8HdOHrc3OQ Would you say the guy in the video is aggressive? He certainly speaks loudly and authoritatively, and uses a lot of emotional words and shortcuts. Of course the answer is no. The article confuses, quite thoroughly, aggression and passion. That's why I said "she's reading too much into it", because she r…

The speech in the video is political propaganda speech. Not only does it use emotional words but it uses value-laden words extensively... both to reinforce the character of the speaker and to underscore the speaker's message. The speaker wishes to come across as passionate because of the persuasive power of that kind of tone/tempo. If a company's engineering culture is anything like that I'd be worried. > The article…

Hm, interesting. This seems like a "Spock vs. Bones" type of worldview, although I would have never guessed that I would side with Bones (age, probably?).

Yeah, perhaps if you want fully rational discussion, then emotions are counterproductive. But should that mean we should have this sterile environment without any passion? And does showing a passion really means aggression? I just don't think so.

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