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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#81
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see your nickname all I can think of is that time you got drunk and puked on the floor. I'm joking of course, but that and your comment are equally smart ways of evaluating other people's deeds and ideas.

We have no way to know if homulilly got drunk and puked on the floor in public, but we do know that Yudkowsky and assorted Lesswrong visitors had a reaction to the Roko's basilisk concept that most relatively "normal" people would judge as embarrassing or humorous.

That was one situation in the long history of a community with high standards of reasoning and discussion, that produces tons of interesting and educative content. Are you really going to judge the whole community by a single overreaction they AFAIR later admitted was an overreaction?

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think the line you were fed about its premise was incorrect, I don't think you read as far as chapter 28, did you? The thing is... HPMOR isn't about the scientific method. It's about rationality. It's not a story about distilling a universal theory of magic or triumphing over death; it's a story about a kid who's had a rationalist education fumbling his way through a world that refuses to actually make sense.

I read well through chapter 70. I did imply that scientific investigation shows up a little , after all! I agree that the line people gave me wasn't correct, but I've heard that line enough that I felt it was appropriate to dispel that particular notion. Perhaps also germane is that I am not personally a believer in Less Wrong-style rationality, and so the intellectual content of the work was not relevant to me excep…

It wasn't apparent in my own comment, but I don't put much stock in the "intellectual content of the work" myself. I dislike LessWrong and self-described rationalists, including Yudkowsky as far as I know him. I agree with su3su2u1 that, insofar as Yudkowsky intended HPMOR as a pedagogical vehicle, it was not really well done.

That said, it is rare that a work of fanfiction manages to be a legitimate deviation and self-contained work that both comments and reflects upon its originator usefully. Generally speaking, I prefer to give all fiction the benefit of the doubt: whatever its failures, it is hard to ignore that it was successfully written and as someone who has tried my hand at it, I know firsthand the challenge overcome. There's a "Man in the Arena" quote insertion that belongs here. I did find it to be a good and engaging story, though, if painfully in need of an editor, which is not a unique remark in the land of fanfiction.

If you want to really have fun, compare HPMOR with the Left Behind series, which qualifies as fanfiction as much as anything. There are probably some fascinating parallels to be found with their relationship to their original works and author intentions and the like. You can find a much higher quality counterpart to su3su2u1 in Fred Clark's Slacktivist blog, which dissects it on a page-by-hilarious-page basis.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#83
post #62

I'm seriously surprised at how many people here are fans of Yudkowsky, given his lack of any real productive output beyond thought experiments and fanfiction, the distinctly weird stuff he judges as right by taking his philosophy to the extremes (e.g. "it's better for one person to be tortured for fifty years than for an extremely large number of people to each get a speck of dust in their eye"), and the way he treat…

I haven't read all of the "Sequences," nor am I familiar with most details of the Less-Wrong-mindset's idiosyncrasies. However, I just re-read the whole book and I'm not sure either of those concepts have any bearing on this work.

There is a bit of assertion that "timeless physics" is representative of true reality, but my reaction was to look it up and find that it's an interesting fringe theory. For all I know, EY doesn't even assert that same theory's truth. Nothing harmful in sparking curiosity, especially in things such as statistics and logical biases, which is where HPMOR puts its emphasis.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#84

I read a bunch of chapters a few years ago and thought it was remarkably horrid.

Same here. I'm not sure what those who enjoy the series get out of it, but I really couldn't see the appeal. Perhaps the author's use of HP as a vehicle for his philosophical ideas was just too jarring.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#85
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only read a little of it, but every time a character did something dumb, oblivious, overconfident, condescending , I braced myself for a thought missile. I guess you could say I found it a bit hamfisted.

In fact, Harry's personality is a Clue, or rather Bayesian evidence to use when predicting future events in the story, or deducing the true nature of the mysterious events that started the story.

Given that the early parts of the story are written in such a way that the narrative treats Harry's behavior as completely right and justified, it seems far more likely to be a retcon done years after the fact than some secret master plan Yudkowsky had in mind from the beginning.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#86
post #62

I'm seriously surprised at how many people here are fans of Yudkowsky, given his lack of any real productive output beyond thought experiments and fanfiction, the distinctly weird stuff he judges as right by taking his philosophy to the extremes (e.g. "it's better for one person to be tortured for fifty years than for an extremely large number of people to each get a speck of dust in their eye"), and the way he treat…

> I'm seriously surprised at how many people here are fans of Yudkowsky

In my (admittedly extremely limited) exposure to him as a person through videos of his talks and some of his transhumanist writing, I didn't really get the impression that he's anything but a very nice and gifted person. So I think this practice of judging or dismissing entire lives by applying a simplistic theme is an antipattern, and this is true here, too. There's a reason why ad hominem attacks are generally frowned-upon.

Yes, I personally found the certainty with which several conclusions are asserted as universal truths on LessWrong in general offputting at times, especially when used in conjunction with the Rationality label, insidiously implying any other analyses of the subject matter would be inherently irrational.

However, some subjectively bogus tenets notwithstanding, I still think it's a valiant and intellectually stimulating attempt at building a new philosophical framework which could potentially keep up with science and future human development. At the very least LessWrong Rationality is a good basis for an ongoing discourse on the subject, and at its best it demonstrates a unique exploration of ethics and, indeed, rationality.

You may argue most or even all of this framework is lifted from earlier philosophical and scientific achievements, but in some areas standing on the shoulders of giants is actually a good sign you're in the right place.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#87

Every time I see anything related to Less Wrong all I can think of is Roko's Basilisk and I can't stop laughing.

Here's what the parent is referring to http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/LessWrong#Roko.27s_Basilisk.

I'm in agreement regarding the absurdity and group think of Less Wrong, for reasons that aren't that relevant to this thread. That said, HPMOR is a fairly entertaining read, once you can get past the feeling that you're having an ideology forced on you through Harry's point of view. The book reminds me of things Ayn Rand has written in that sense.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#88

As a philosophy grad who finds this stuff mildly interesting, I wish the "rationalists" had chosen a different name for their movement. While "rationality" brings to mind Plato or Descartes, this movement appears to be a kind of hyper-empiricism informed by cognitive psychology, AI research, and Bayesian statistics. In any case, if you're going to be an empiricist, it strikes me as a pretty decent way to go.

Serious question: what would you recommend, instead of empiricism?

Instead of empiricism? Probably some variant of pragmatism in the direction of Wilfrid Sellars and Robert Brandom. Try this on for size: section two of Brandom's article "Pragmatism, Inferentialism, and Modality in Sellars' Arguments against Empiricism."[1] Brandom's argument (which he has given different versions of elsewhere) is that having a belief is necessarily a social endeavor, because the content of that belief can never be fully specified by observations. Philosophers[2] have tried and failed to formalize observations in order to specify the content of beliefs in a formal language, but it never works. Brandom suggests an alternate route: the content of a belief is inseparable from the role it plays in the social "game" of asking for and giving reasons.

Here's a key passage: "Observational vocabulary is not a vocabulary one could use though one used no other. Non-inferential reports of the results of observation do not form an autonomous stratum of language. In particular, when we look at what one must do to count as making a non-inferential report, we see that that is not a practice one could engage in except in the context of inferential practices of using those observations as premises from which to draw inferential conclusions, as reasons for making judgments and undertaking commitments that are not themselves observations. The contribution to this argument of Sellars’s inferential functionalism about semantics lies in underwriting the claim that for any judgment, claim, or belief to be cognitively, conceptually, or epistemically significant, for it to be a potential bit of knowledge or evidence, to be a sapient state or status, it must be able to play a distinctive role in reasoning: it must be able to serve as a reason for further judgments, claims, or beliefs, hence as a premise from which they can be inferred. That role in reasoning, in particular, what those judgments, claims, or beliefs can serve as reasons or evidence for, is an essential, and not just an accidental component of their having the semantic content that they do."

EDIT2: This might be a more helpful explanation. Elsewhere, Brandom elaborates on this view by redefining beliefs as commitments. A commitment entails some other commitments, and is mutually incompatible with others. For example, if I believe that I'm eating an apple, this entails the belief that I'm eating a fruit. It's mutually incompatible with the belief that I'm eating a squid. It also entails that I believe things I might not even know about the apple, such as the chemical formulas for the various sugars I'm eating. The point is, if I play the game of reasoning correctly--mostly by dispensing with mutually incompatible commitments when they arise--others (e.g. botanists, chemists) can hold me accountable for all the correct beliefs about the apple. The "content" of the apple, for me, is nothing other than the series of moves I make in this game.

EDIT1: You should also read rpedroso's comment, which does a great job exploring the many alternatives that arose after empiricism reached its impasse.

1: http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-444/paper01.pdf

2: Not only empiricists, but possibly Kant on a very straightforward reading--although Brandom has a very different reading of Kant.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#89
post #85
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, Harry's personality is a Clue, or rather Bayesian evidence to use when predicting future events in the story, or deducing the true nature of the mysterious events that started the story.

Given that the early parts of the story are written in such a way that the narrative treats Harry's behavior as completely right and justified, it seems far more likely to be a retcon done years after the fact than some secret master plan Yudkowsky had in mind from the beginning.

It's possible. He did however make an offer to reveal the entire plot to anyone who could puzzle out a fairly minor part of it pretty early on.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#90
post #62

I'm seriously surprised at how many people here are fans of Yudkowsky, given his lack of any real productive output beyond thought experiments and fanfiction, the distinctly weird stuff he judges as right by taking his philosophy to the extremes (e.g. "it's better for one person to be tortured for fifty years than for an extremely large number of people to each get a speck of dust in their eye"), and the way he treat…

It's not so hard to explain: he writes well and generally has something interesting to say. This is more than enough to keep people reading.

That doesn't mean everything he writes stands up, but he's smart enough that you have to think a while about what might be wrong with his arguments, and that's entertainment enough.

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