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Web Development as a career – the realities

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Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#31
I like pretty much everything someone takes the time to write about development, but this rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not sure what it is exactly the author is trying to express here: that engineers need to stay current on new, hot technologies? Everyone knows that. But then he seems to deride people who, based on his interviewing, haven't used a in production / in a new project.

You can't have it both ways. You need to find a way to evaluate people and, through that evaluation, grok whether or not they can pick up a new technology that they aren't already familiar with. If you can't figure that out, your interview process has failed. Think about it: the complexity and difficulty of your own problems vastly exceed the difficulty a senior engineer faces learning a few new frameworks or APIs. If not, you're doing something pretty trivial.

The best people I've ever worked with weren't people who a priori understood the technology stack we were working with -- instead, they have been seasoned engineers who know how go out and learn, and then apply what they already know in a new environment. This seems so obvious I feel silly even writing it down here, but this is on the front page, so it must be resonating with folks.

What tptacek has said about .NET developers working at IT departments at huge organizations really rings true here. If you immediately write someone off because they work with technologies you don't work with[1] then you're doing it wrong.

1. Assuming you're not looking for a quick, contracted hired gun for something fairly straightforward.

Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#32
post #6

"when asked what makes you a senior developer, they answer 'Because I have been coding for 5 years'." Maybe 5 years is insufficient, to be considered senior, but isn't the amount of time you've been coding what defines how senior you are? I get that technologies come and go and you have to stay up to date, but I would think that if someone were looking for a senior developer they would be looking for someone with a l…

Web development is like an entry point for programming these days, the lowest hanging fruit if you will. I would not exactly call anyone who does exclusively web development "senior". It's like being a nurse - I suppose you can become a senior nurse, but you're not going to be a doctor. There's only so much you can progress professionally in web development, and each new stack gets easier to pick up, almost no challenge, patterns repeat and boredom sets in. I started from website development, then went to enterprise web application development and now moving on to data engineering (data mining, machine learning).

Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#33
post #31

I like pretty much everything someone takes the time to write about development, but this rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not sure what it is exactly the author is trying to express here: that engineers need to stay current on new, hot technologies? Everyone knows that. But then he seems to deride people who, based on his interviewing, haven't used a in production / in a new project. You can't have it both ways. You nee…

It's the pop culture mentality which is now worse than ever:

[2004] http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523

"So I think the lack of a real computer science today, and the lack of real software engineering today, is partly due to this pop culture."

"Like I said, it’s a pop culture. A commercial hit record for teenagers doesn’t have to have any particular musical merits. I think a lot of the success of various programming languages is expeditious gap-filling."

Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#34
post #31

I like pretty much everything someone takes the time to write about development, but this rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not sure what it is exactly the author is trying to express here: that engineers need to stay current on new, hot technologies? Everyone knows that. But then he seems to deride people who, based on his interviewing, haven't used a in production / in a new project. You can't have it both ways. You nee…

Exactly what you said. The other part that got me was his "as an entry-level programmer, be prepared for grinding, endless tedium."

Maybe that's how his workplace treats junior devs, but the reality is that a developer with very little experience but a lot of skill is someone who can add a lot of value, and can find a workplace where they'll be able to do that. If you try to make a great junior dev "pay their dues," well, they have better options, with companies that will use them more sensibly.

Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#36
post #8

> They have been working in the same job, with the same technologies, on the same product but when asked what makes you a senior developer, they answer “Because I have been coding for 5 years”. > The sad fact is that these people have not been aware of the realities of the industry they have been working in. Their job and their job security is no longer secure. Never let this become you! It sounds like the author val…

Linus has been working in the same job, with the same technologies, on the same product ...

Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#37
post #7
post #6

"when asked what makes you a senior developer, they answer 'Because I have been coding for 5 years'." Maybe 5 years is insufficient, to be considered senior, but isn't the amount of time you've been coding what defines how senior you are? I get that technologies come and go and you have to stay up to date, but I would think that if someone were looking for a senior developer they would be looking for someone with a l…

Yeah I don't think I'd want to work for this guy. Keeping up is one thing. What makes a mature dev is language/tech agnostic.

i have 12 years experience and my interviews have gone to complete train wrecks in the past - i cringe to think the interviewer might have had the same point of view as this guy, that I had just watched some videos and knew things at a high level. What a flat out ignorant view point.

Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#38
post #17

This is why development is ageist. Keeping programming skills up to date after work, and spending hours after work trying different languages and libraries is fine when your young. Its not so fine, when you have kids and a wife to look after. Probably have about an hour to myself everyday.

We need a union.

Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#39
post #17

This is why development is ageist. Keeping programming skills up to date after work, and spending hours after work trying different languages and libraries is fine when your young. Its not so fine, when you have kids and a wife to look after. Probably have about an hour to myself everyday.

Sounds like a race to the bottom.

Re: Web Development as a career – the realities

#40
post #6

"when asked what makes you a senior developer, they answer 'Because I have been coding for 5 years'." Maybe 5 years is insufficient, to be considered senior, but isn't the amount of time you've been coding what defines how senior you are? I get that technologies come and go and you have to stay up to date, but I would think that if someone were looking for a senior developer they would be looking for someone with a l…

Sometimes you need someone who knows every detail of whatever system. It can really pay off and you are willing to throw money and titles to get someone good. It doesn't mean they are a great senior dev, but if you need that person, then you need that person.

I've done embedded work, application work and now I'm doing web development. I often seen the "5 year senior wannabes". Hell, after 5 years of work, I was one of them! I refer to my old self as a "hotshot ass hole programmer". They are common.

These days, I think a junior developer is someone who needs assistance to get their job done. An intermediate developer is one who can get everything done without assistance (although they may still benefit from assistance!). A senior developer is someone who can bring up everybody else's level -- getting assistance in this seems to be a critical prerequisite for success).

I tell this to people on my team, but again it is hard to judge your own effectiveness. There is a lot of hubris. I know -- been there, done that, slept in the t-shirt for over 20 years. Thinking about it, I think the key piece of experience that can help you be a good senior developer is to watch a system that you built collapse under its own weight. Coming to grips with the idea that all of those things you really believed would definitely lead to wonderful software were just... wrong (and it doesn't matter what it was that you believed here).

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