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Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

kateheddleston.com

31–40 of 63 posts

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#31

Frankly, that's a terrible article, full of sexist stereotypes. She is reading too much into it. Just briefly: Sometimes people argue because they genuinely think their favorite tool is superior, and want to help others be more efficient. Sometimes people speak loudly because they are genuinely excited about something. I doubt there is any authority or respect to win by good arguing about technology (especially on on…

Your comment is an example of the stuff she's describing... It can be broken down structurally as follows: - Righteous indignation - Example with sample size of 1 - Half-hearted praise - Jocular, superior tone - Name calling Zinger

What like here article that opens with name calling? Pot, meet kettle.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#32

A good writeup. But who decides who is being aggressive? How do we avoid the same short-circuiting that happens with "You seem really frustrated", repackaged as "You're being really aggressive"? Are participants allowed to accuse one another of aggression, or must that be done by an observer or outside party? If a participant is a member of a group that is stereotyped as "aggressive", and that individual is accused o…

I'm not sure that you need to do so. I agree that 'you seem really upset' can easily turn into a meta-argument, subtly disqualifying other participants by shifting the focus of discussion to their emotional states and thereby discounting their substantive contributions. In politics this has become practically institutionalized.

I'm a huge fan of Deborah Tannen, not least because I grew up in a household with a lot of verbal and physical aggression so I am painfully aware of how awful arguments can get and why arguing is soften a one-way street for the participants. and after studying her work I found some techniques that seem to work well during face-to-face disputes to de-escalate things without going passive-aggressive. the downside is that t's time-consuming and hard work.

If someone is yelling at me and it's something more than some momentary misunderstanding that can be established and then set aside, then I just let them yell. After a while the lack of reply leads them to run out of steam, at which point I ask, politely, whether they're finished. Maybe they are, or maybe this unleashes another tirade. So far nobody has offered a third one :-) Once they say they are finished, now I have some time to talk - because they said so themselves. And instead of arguing with them or expressing my own view, or characterizing their emotional state (even positively), I try to summarize their complaint as fairly as possible, eg 'So you're saying that after I went into the kitchen to cook dinner, I set your hose on fire and burned it to the ground - is that correct?'*

I try to articulate the person's basic complaint in full, while ignoring any ancillary stuff (eg remarks about why I'm a bad person or that my mother wears army boots or that the person doesn't care for the horse I rode in on either). The point of this is to build agreement with the other person about what they said. Although I may go on to dispute it, this shows the other person that I did actually listen to them, and that I paid sufficient attention to what they were saying that I can be trusted to accurately report their own claims back to them. Sometimes it turns out that I've failed to understand something important - either how much they cared about something or some actual fact that I got wrong, so I might have to concede the argument at this point, or concede some part of it. That's OK; the point of this is not to win, but to bring an end to the conflict, and if that end disadvantages me that's my problem.

If I am going to disagree, there's two different ways that could happen. If it's about some factual issue, then I try to go back with the other person to before the dispute arose, and establish the last thing prior that we do agree about, in the same way that I secured their agreement about the basic content of their argument. This allows us (not me) to identifying the point where our experiences diverge. Maybe it's a simple misunderstanding which could then be cleared up, or maybe it stems from some difference of opinion; in the latter case I outline as briefly as possible what I thought that was different from what they thought. If they attack me for that I accept it, but reiterate that that was the opinion I held at the time, right or wrong, and show how it informed my subsequent actions/beliefs/whatever. That part usually goes smoothly because most people are familiar with the way large consequences can flow from small differences. The aim then is to identify the smallest difference that existed, before the consequences became significant, and work with the other person to understand how it arose. Making the point of disagreement as small as possible usually allows the conflict to be made smaller as well, to the point that it can be resolved without the 'losing' side having to feel humiliated. Even if I was right and the other person was wrong, I try to pass over that as quickly as possible and ask what I could do differently in future to ensure the situation does not recur.

The other sort of disagreement is one of conflicting aims rather than conflicting narratives; we're in conflict because we want different things, or both want an exclusive right o the same thing, or because of some fundamentally different belief. In this istuation I try a similar approach - get the opponent's agreement about my attempt to fairly summarize their premises, then articulate my own premises. Even if my opponent rejects them utterly I just accept that, but state gently that my premises are as firmly held as theirs, and try to articulate (and seek agreement for) what the contours of the resulting disagreement will be, ie that we may not be able to resolve the dispute, but we can minimize its scope, rather than attempting to win by throwing in other irrelevant stuff, up to and including the kitchen sink (a phrase which I feel sure originates in the accusation that not only is one party in a marriage having an affair or doing something equally bad, s/he also does a terrible job of washing dishes). This is of course even more time-consuming, because the conflict hasn't been resolved, but by gradually (and mutually) whittling it down to a minimum number of irreconcilable differences, and if possible, quantifying the value assigned to victory or loss (eg 'So you are saying that you will only feel satisfied if you are allowed to burn my house to the ground in turn, yes?'), it allows for letting the emotions out slowly in the same way as you'd let the air out of an over-inflated balloon, rather than having it pop (resulting in irreparable damage) or go whizzing randomly all over the room (with unforeseeable consequences, eg things getting knocked over). Although you're still in conflict, it's now a cooler conflict than it was before, and importantly, your opponent acknowledges, however grudgingly, the fact of your agency and your right occupy a conflicting position. At this point you can start negotiating approaches to resolution (eg going to court) or containment (eg agreeing to kick the can down the road, something countries often do over disputed territories where neither side wants to give up a claim but they don't actually want to go to war over it, so they agree to disagree).

I think that one of the primary difficulties for us as a species is our capacity to become addicted to particular hormonal experiences; our capacity for narrative in many ways serves the purpose of generating the release of hormones in predictable patterns, and it could be argued that ritualized activities or formulaic stories are a way of domesticating and channeling that. The best way to deal with someone else trying to make you into the villain of their personal story is to become familiar enough with their story that you can tell it back to them in a manner that they recognize. By identifying the driving factors between different actors and distilling the basis of the ensuring conflict to the most fundamental identifiable form, the basis for resolution (or at worst, mitigation) often becomes clear.

* I would like to point out that I have never set anyone's house on fire and you could totally trust me to cook dinner. This example is fortunately drawn from imagination rather than experience.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#33
post #5

If I am arguing with someone and I change my mind as a result of the argument, I consider myself to have "won" because I gained knowledge. If we accept all beliefs as provisional and only look to the argument as a method of hypothesis testing, it can be part of a group's rational process. However in my opinion the best way to approach group decision making is to acknowledge that all decisions have tradeoffs and then…

This is an excellent perspective. Those tradeoffs are often the root of these arguments anyway: Alice comes up with a solution that has some advantage x. Bob comes up with a solution that has some advantage y. They'll argue endlessly because neither one of them will say "Oh you're right, I didn't consider x" or "I like your solution, but I don't know what's more important: x or y. Let's focus on determining that inst…

> "I like your solution, but I don't know what's more important: x or y. Let's focus on determining that instead."

Yes exactly. If only people were more rational, solution oriented, and humble. Engineering is about design within tradeoffs.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#34

I feel like this article starts off on the wrong foot: "An argument is the use of aggressive opposition to weed out weak logic, keeping the strongest ideas possible. The philosophy behind using arguments for problem-solving is that attacking the weak parts of an idea will leave the best solutions." I'm with you so far. Being able to distinguish good from bad is the basis of critical thought. "The metaphor for argumen…

Yes, it is possible to have absolutely, completely emotion-less arguments. No, it is not easy, or particularly common. If you truly feel like you & your work environment do have such pure-truth-seeking arguments: great . However, please take some time to really critically evaluate & test that assertion -- the people who are most at home in such an environment are the people least likely to notice its negative effects…

I guess I didn't mean to imply that I live in a world where everyone can have these "pure-truth" arguments. In fact, it's a rare and often rewarding experience if it does happen. I also know that there's a time and a place for debating and it requires consent of all parties. It also requires that some value is being generated, if we're talking about debating in the workplace.

I guess I am having trouble appreciating the relation of this article to gender, for two reasons.

1. The author is claiming that "men are aggressive" and then claiming that "aggression" is the problem, so the point of the article really seemed to be "men are the problem". I find this in some ways offensive, especially since I (a man) think that I don't do the things mentioned in the article. Maybe I'm overreacting to being accused of something based on my gender.

2. The author states "Crossing boundaries and using aggression to win an argument includes making personal remarks, interrupting, speaking much more loudly than an opponent, or entering someone's personal space." I completely agree that these behaviors are unacceptable. But, I think that these are all gender neutral behaviors, and it harms people of any gender when they are used against them. Is it really important to designate men as the ones who must follow these rules?

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#35

Frankly, that's a terrible article, full of sexist stereotypes. She is reading too much into it. Just briefly: Sometimes people argue because they genuinely think their favorite tool is superior, and want to help others be more efficient. Sometimes people speak loudly because they are genuinely excited about something. I doubt there is any authority or respect to win by good arguing about technology (especially on on…

> Another fun fact - I am native Czech speaker, and we have two different words for "argument" - "debata" and "hadka", the former implying a civil one, the other one meaning one where people are angry at each other. I am not really sure which meaning the article uses The problem is that it's the author's responsibility to disambiguate between the possible meanings, and the author of this article makes no such attempt…

If you read the article, the author made a distinction between these using the terms "regulated" and "unregulated."

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#36
I work for a company that is very much like the bullet points described in the post, and nothing gets done. Sure there are lots of endless meetings and brainstorming sessions, but nobody bangs on the table and nobody steps up. Nobody's negative in public, but returns silently resentful and sometimes even demotivated to their own office. Sometimes the negativity comes out in a back-handed manner, as gossip, or passive aggression. What fighting and discussion gets replaced with is often at least as ugly and detrimental.

The previous company I worked for was the exact opposite, probably a good example for the sort of aggressive and argumentative company the article talks about. Things got done, but the atmosphere was not very good. It helped to be dominant and make a lot of noise.

The writer tries to push for the environment she'd like as the best possible way of achieving whatever that needs achieving, but having worked for several companies on either end of that spectrum, I don't think it's all that clear cut. You might like a non-confrontational style, only positivity and no competing, but I don't think that's a company where everyone wants to work or that would do well in every market.

Finally, I don't want to argue ;) -- but the word aggression is very ambiguous and some of the examples refer rather to violence (war, physical aggression) rather than with fighting spirit (like an athlete).

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#37
post #36

I work for a company that is very much like the bullet points described in the post, and nothing gets done. Sure there are lots of endless meetings and brainstorming sessions, but nobody bangs on the table and nobody steps up. Nobody's negative in public, but returns silently resentful and sometimes even demotivated to their own office. Sometimes the negativity comes out in a back-handed manner, as gossip, or passive…

One strategy is to say "You seem frustrated." Another is "You're reading too much into this."

There's so much wrong with a culture of aggressive arguing it's hard to know where to start but consider this: we've got plenty of research that tells us that women are disproportionately disliked if they act in an aggressive manner. Men, on the other hand, are often seen as being "winners" or "leaders" with _the same behaviour_. So you're de facto running a misogynistic culture by promoting this behaviour.

And if there's much better ways for your firm to win than be more aggressive than your competitors. There's serving your customers for a start.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#38

>Second, men are conditioned to be more competitive towards women than men. In studies on boys and girls in gym class, boys try harder in competitive foot races against girls versus their male peers [ 10 ]. The study this observation is derived from only talks about competitions of physical ability.

>>Second, men are conditioned to be more competitive towards women than men. In studies on boys and girls in gym class, boys try harder in competitive foot races against girls versus their male peers [ 10 ].

these are 2 different races. In the first case a boy runs to avoid shame. In the second - to win. The second is a real competition, while the first isn't even a race really, more just like running from a bear.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#39
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, B is not skepticism. B is another claim. It is the claim that men do not compete more strongly with women than with men in domains outside of physical activity. Unless you have evidence to support this claim, we should be skeptical of it, especially in light of A.

It's a claim only in the sense that any skepticism is a claim (which, sure, is true in a narrow semantic sense). Skepticism is disbelieving an assertion due to lack of evidence. All B is saying is that there's no evidence provided that trends in physical competition can be used to extrapolate intellectual or political competition. Extrapolation from one set of evidence requires more than just gut feeling -- it requir…

> Given this study, do you think it is more reasonable a) to think this competition extends to other spheres, or b) to think that it does not.

Just following along with you guys. B is another claim because it is not disbelief, it is a negative claim:

> b) to think that it does not.

Maybe you misinterpreted it on reading, but it's very clearly not simply disbelief, it is rejection. Neutral disbelief (read: skepticism) would be to take neither position a nor b.

Re: Argument Cultures and Unregulated Aggression

#40

Frankly, that's a terrible article, full of sexist stereotypes. She is reading too much into it. Just briefly: Sometimes people argue because they genuinely think their favorite tool is superior, and want to help others be more efficient. Sometimes people speak loudly because they are genuinely excited about something. I doubt there is any authority or respect to win by good arguing about technology (especially on on…

She also completely misrepresents both engineering and psychology. She claims that the consequences for lawyers are big if they lie, but for engineers it's the wild west. This is just asinine - in engineering, if you lie and cheat, you may well end up with human lives on your conscience.
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