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A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

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Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#61

Post by beat »

logfromblammo wrote: post #57
beat wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great story! That's what I love about immigration - bringing people like you here. America needs people with your attitude.

But it's not immigration. H-1B visas are nonimmigrant guest worker visas, with dual intent. That just means H-1B guest workers are allowed to apply for permanent residency with an I-140 while working in the US. It doesn't take a rocket senator to figure out that if people are entering on an H-1B and then applying for a green card at the earliest opportunity, it is because the US isn't issuing nearly enough immigrant…

Can't say I disagree with you there. But America has a long tradition of people doing whatever it takes to get here - lying, twisting the rules, or hiding in container ships or swimming rivers in the dark of night. People take incredible risks to become Americans.

THOSE are the people I want in my country! Serious immigrants are generally more entrepreneurial and more courageous that citizens. If there's a root cause justification to American exceptionalism, its that we came from above average stock.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#62

Post by catkin »

warfangle wrote: post #25
bsbechtel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My questions is why can't someone else offer these same programmers >$35/hr and steal them away? What's the friction in the market preventing this?

H1Bs can't be stolen away. They're locked into their employment contract unless they want to go home.

Not true. Once a H1-b recipient has a receipt number, they can effectively transfer the H1-b to any company willing to sponsor.

Source: I hold a H1-b.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#63

Post by vowelless »

hapless wrote: post #27
therealwill wrote: post #19

Sponsoring an H1-B employee, in theory, is always more expensive than an hiring a local because not only do you have to pay an H1-B visa employee the same wage as a local you also have to pay the lawyer and visa fees. Often times employers will also have to provide an employment contract guaranteeing x number of years of employment in order to increase chances of visa approval. In practice, this is not the case. H1-b…

Even if they hire in at a market wage (and they often don't), you don't have to give H-1B workers raises or promotions.

> Even if they hire in at a market wage (and they often don't), you don't have to give H-1B workers raises or promotions.

And do you "have" to give "normal" workers raises or promotions? Is any employee entitled to such a trajectory?

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#64

Post by Vraxx »

beat wrote: post #61
logfromblammo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not immigration. H-1B visas are nonimmigrant guest worker visas, with dual intent. That just means H-1B guest workers are allowed to apply for permanent residency with an I-140 while working in the US. It doesn't take a rocket senator to figure out that if people are entering on an H-1B and then applying for a green card at the earliest opportunity, it is because the US isn't issuing nearly enough immigrant…

Can't say I disagree with you there. But America has a long tradition of people doing whatever it takes to get here - lying, twisting the rules, or hiding in container ships or swimming rivers in the dark of night. People take incredible risks to become Americans. THOSE are the people I want in my country! Serious immigrants are generally more entrepreneurial and more courageous that citizens. If there's a root cause…

I get where you're coming from, though I can't help but disagree with it. Why does it necessarily need to be hard for people to immigrate to ensure that they are people that you want in your country? Couldn't quality be enforced or even cared about by the people that are hiring them? I should think the act of immigrating alone presents enough challenges to 'thin out' the people who don't 'want it enough'.

I think we're more likely to end up with higher quality immigrants if we provide higher quality opportunity in our countries rather than making it a ridiculous game of hoop jumping to immigrate. In fact, "lying, twisting the rules, or hiding in container ships or swimming rivers in the dark of night" sounds like it's more likely to instill contempt for the rules of the country before they're even citizen's rather than ensure their entrepreneurial spirit.

Edited to space out paragraphs.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#65

Post by nikroux »

davidw wrote: post #60
humanrebar wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> H1B is not a problem for America or "engineer's wages". Abuse of the system is. I'm sympathetic. I really am. I have a lot of friends working on visas, both now and in the past. But I just don't see the economics of this. How can adding hundreds of thousands of people in any field not depress wages, at least in the short-to-medium term. Why do I care? I want young Americans to go into IT and engineering in general.…

> But I just don't see the economics of this It goes beyond basic economics, so it's worth reading and learning about. > adding hundreds of thousands of people "Unfortunately", those people already exist and have skills, just in other places, where they happened to have been born. If you create bad enough policies, companies can and will go where the workers are. Also, this is not a zero sum game. There are more peop…

> Why are those people more important than those that happen to be born elsewhere?

I can answer that one for you. Why should he as an American care about and for the future of youth in other countries? It is natural for us as humans to first take care of our own family/neighbours/country men. As mean as it sounds you cannot build a better future for your children if instead of taking care of things that will help them you take care of things that will help others' children.

Its not a hard concept to grasp really. And for Americans the future of American youth is ABSOLUTELY unquestionably more important the future of the youth elsewhere in the world. You know I had this exact conversation with an Easter European friend of mine who wants to have an easier time to move to the US, but at the same time he got upset when I proposed that his country should take in African immigrants in droves.

> Why should people now not have the same rights they did? Different times. Its very childish to expect the world be the way you want it to be and to throw a tantrum about it.

Americans pay taxes in America and they build the country. Their ancestors did the same. Their alligence was and is to the US - it is their home. Do tell me what the artificially driving down of wages has in store for them? How does benefit the US?

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#66

Post by beat »

Vraxx wrote: post #64
beat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't say I disagree with you there. But America has a long tradition of people doing whatever it takes to get here - lying, twisting the rules, or hiding in container ships or swimming rivers in the dark of night. People take incredible risks to become Americans. THOSE are the people I want in my country! Serious immigrants are generally more entrepreneurial and more courageous that citizens. If there's a root cause…

I get where you're coming from, though I can't help but disagree with it. Why does it necessarily need to be hard for people to immigrate to ensure that they are people that you want in your country? Couldn't quality be enforced or even cared about by the people that are hiring them? I should think the act of immigrating alone presents enough challenges to 'thin out' the people who don't 'want it enough'. I think we'…

"Contempt for the rules" is pretty congruent with "entrepreneurial spirit". :)

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#67

Post by Vraxx »

tdaltonc wrote: post #53

ITT there are apparently two sides: 1) the heartless capitalists who want to abuse labor and 2) the nativist nationalists who want special treatment because of where they were born.

That's a false dichotomy at its finest. I've read a wide range of agreeing and dissenting opinions with a range of reasons to back them up. Though I will say that there is a decent amount of nationalism present in this comment section, you are right about that.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#68

Post by Vraxx »

wooyi wrote: post #58

I bet if someone did an economic impact study of H1B visas and looked beyond pure salary numbers, you would find a very positive economic impact. America was built by immigrants. Lest you forget. Borders are a remnant of the old world. Companies need to stay competitive and tapping the international workforce is part of that competitiveness.

I find it interesting that typically we commend ourselves for being a nation of immigrants (all in the past of course) and consistently resist current immigration. I feel like we might be more tolerant as a species if we did away with all of these nationalistic tendencies.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#69

Post by Vraxx »

beat wrote: post #66
Vraxx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get where you're coming from, though I can't help but disagree with it. Why does it necessarily need to be hard for people to immigrate to ensure that they are people that you want in your country? Couldn't quality be enforced or even cared about by the people that are hiring them? I should think the act of immigrating alone presents enough challenges to 'thin out' the people who don't 'want it enough'. I think we'…

"Contempt for the rules" is pretty congruent with "entrepreneurial spirit". :)

I disagree with that because I think they are only situationally congruent and you don't necessarily need contempt for the rules to foster an entrepreneurial spirit. If the rules are burdensome without very good justification for existing (which is definitely possible) I think the two can be congruent, but I don't support making our rules burdensome without good justification for the sole purpose of breeding contempt for the rules/ an entrepreneurial spirit.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#70

Post by therealwill »

vowelless wrote: post #63
hapless wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they hire in at a market wage (and they often don't), you don't have to give H-1B workers raises or promotions.

> Even if they hire in at a market wage (and they often don't), you don't have to give H-1B workers raises or promotions. And do you "have" to give "normal" workers raises or promotions? Is any employee entitled to such a trajectory?

Yes but a "normal" worker can easily change jobs. With H1-B it is very difficult and expensive to change jobs so they have to either leave the country or suck it up.
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