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A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

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Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#11

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

rguzman wrote: post #7

> A 2013 study by the Economic Policy Institute showed that American universities graduate 50 percent more students in computer, information science, and engineering each year than are hired in those fields This is a reasoning flaw: companies don't need people who graduate from certain fields. They need people with certain skills that are difficult to attain. A degree in those fields is correlated with the skills in…

And companies can only find those skill abroad? And not by - say - offering local graduates lower starter pay but extra training?

When everyone is talking about how hard it is to predict hiring outcomes, it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that this problem magically disappears for prospects who happen to be from other countries.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#12

Post by mc32 »

fsk wrote: post #4

The worst part of importing workers via H1-b is the indentured servant aspect. That makes the H1-b employee more attractive than a comparably-qualified American earning the same salary.

So would you support an effort to make it easier for foreign engineers, sw developers and physicians to come in to get a legal job in the us? Foreign knowledge workers seem to not enjoy the same sympathy low wage immigrants enjoy, perhaps due to the more immediate threat of job stability foreign knowledge workers pose to domestic knowledge workers, even when this fear hasn't been substantiated.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#14

Post by PaulHoule »

freefrancisco wrote: post #13

If the US doesn't want all the tech talent, they will have to go somewhere else. If another city outside the US becomes a magnet that concentrates all that talent, be prepared to relinquish leadership.

I have some familiarity with the "job shops" that hire a lot of H-1Bs, they do advertise for jobs in the US but I will say that the basic business model is something like "charge the customer $120 an hour and pay somebody $35 an hour to do the work" (Now there is some overhead, so this is not as bad as it sounds, but it is pretty bad.)

One thing that is fairly shocking is the low pay rates for people with skills that are unusual and high demand, I can only imagine they are throwing huge numbers of freshers at the problems.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#15

Post by pyrophane »

beat wrote: post #6

Once when debating the poor quality of programmers with a friend, I said "You know how dumb the average programmer is? By definition, half are even dumber!" He responded, "Only half? Do you mean the mean, the median, or the mode?" And there's the rub. There may not be a shortage of engineers, but there's a serious shortage of good engineers. And I'm not sure more H1B will solve that problem.

That is very fair. I think we are all aware by now that the bulk of H1-B visas are going to a handful of companies that are not using them to bring in the "best of the best," which makes it harder for companies who do want to hire bright foreign workers to get in under the cap. Wouldn't it be great if we could somehow reform the system to make sure it actually worked as intended?

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#17

Post by ep103 »

hga wrote: post #3

" How about the presidential race of 2016? Hillary.... " On the Republican side, Ted Cruz wants to increase the H-1B cap to 300,000/year. All of the other Republicans who look like they might throw their hat in the ring are immigration boosters, although I'm not aware of any of them having positions on H-1B visas.

Jesus, that's basically a 6x increase.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#18

Post by pyrophane »

rguzman wrote: post #7

> A 2013 study by the Economic Policy Institute showed that American universities graduate 50 percent more students in computer, information science, and engineering each year than are hired in those fields This is a reasoning flaw: companies don't need people who graduate from certain fields. They need people with certain skills that are difficult to attain. A degree in those fields is correlated with the skills in…

I think the problem is also that companies are no longer as willing to train new hires. It can take a lot of work to take an entry level employee and train them up to the point where they can do the job you really want to hire for. When people worked for the same company for decades it was easily worth it, but now that workers hop around every few years fewer companies are willing to make the investment, hence the fact that everyone is looking for experienced engineers, and recent grads from all but the best schools can have a bit more of a tough time.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#19

Post by therealwill »

Sponsoring an H1-B employee, in theory, is always more expensive than an hiring a local because not only do you have to pay an H1-B visa employee the same wage as a local you also have to pay the lawyer and visa fees. Often times employers will also have to provide an employment contract guaranteeing x number of years of employment in order to increase chances of visa approval.

In practice, this is not the case. H1-b visa workers have poor mobility and little recourse when employers cheat the system by providing lower than market pay and requiring the employee to pay their own H1B visa fees. Furthermore, there is little (if any) enforcement that the employer seriously considered domestic applicants at market rates over the H1B applicate. 99% of the time the H1-B is already hired and the employer is posting a job 100% tailored to that H1-B applicant.

Re: A scheme to lower engineers’ wages

#20

Post by bsbechtel »

PaulHoule wrote: post #14
freefrancisco wrote: post #13

If the US doesn't want all the tech talent, they will have to go somewhere else. If another city outside the US becomes a magnet that concentrates all that talent, be prepared to relinquish leadership.

I have some familiarity with the "job shops" that hire a lot of H-1Bs, they do advertise for jobs in the US but I will say that the basic business model is something like "charge the customer $120 an hour and pay somebody $35 an hour to do the work" (Now there is some overhead, so this is not as bad as it sounds, but it is pretty bad.) One thing that is fairly shocking is the low pay rates for people with skills that…

My questions is why can't someone else offer these same programmers >$35/hr and steal them away? What's the friction in the market preventing this?
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