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Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

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Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#41

Post by enraged_camel »

aryehof wrote: post #14

One can surely argue that for an increasingly large proportion of the public, the level of monetary punishment does not provide any deterrent from breaking rules. Maybe I am imagining it, but (anecdotally) I tend to see mainly expensive cars parked illegally in handicapped spots. Income proportional fines seems to me like a fair way to apply a monetary deterrent to people that now get meaningless (to them) fines.

>>One can surely argue that for an increasingly large proportion of the public

Did you mean an increasingly small proportion of the public? Because income inequality statistics seem to show that the rich are few in number and they are getting richer, whereas the vast majority suffer from stagnating or even declining wages. For the latter group, receiving a $500 ticket, followed by an increase in insurance premiums once that ticket goes on the driving record, is a pretty significant financial blow.

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#42

Post by tomohawk »

It seems strange to punish the very people who are paying for most of the government in a harsher way than those who are freeloading off of it. Not saying everyone is a freeloader, but what about the people who have no income?

The person could be destitute, and speed with impunity. Or the person could control lots of wealth, but all the wealth is in corporations and there's no actual income.

Or, what about the person who has high income, but also high expenses, such as for running a business and employing people? It doesn't seem fair to fine them $100k for speeding, causing their business to fail and people to lose jobs.

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#43

Post by collyw »

colin_jack wrote: post #40
Normati wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if perhaps it's a good thing that rich people can pay to use handicapped spots. We could just think of them as "priority parking", and the regular priority parking ticket costs $x while handicapped people get a coupon entitling them to free access. After all, the intention isn't to prevent healthy people using them, it's to prevent them becoming unavailable - a gaggle of handicap convention attendees would c…

Some disabled people rely on access to these spaces, meaning if the spaces are full they can't do their shopping and have to go home.

While I agree with you, the situation is also abused somewhat (in the UK at least).

A girl in my university class had some kind of wrist problem. She wrote slow because of it, though no slower than me - I am just a slow writer. She was officially classed as disabled and could have had access to such parking, as well as extra time in exams. Does she really need access to disabled parking spots? She was fit and healthy otherwise.

The other person I spoke to who had access to disabled parking "borrowed the permit from his aunt".

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#44

Post by RobAley »

sago wrote: post #38
robmcm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better still for some fines you are forced, or can opt (as opposed to larger fine) to go on a speed awareness course. After all the point is to make people drive safely, not make money for the state.

Except that you have to pay for the course. And the cost is the same as the ticket. The only difference is you don't get the endorsements on your license.

And this saves you a lot more money than the fine on your Insurance premiums not increasing.

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#45

Post by RobAley »

onion2k wrote: post #35
gambiting wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it really? 10% of your income if you make $500 a month is a LOT, because it can make a difference between being able to afford rent/food or not. But 10% of your income if you make 10 million is obviously huge, but is it going to have any impact on your lifestyle? No. I love how UK does it - the fines are relatively small, but your insurance rates can go up so much you can pay a small fortune over next 3 years…

You get a 50 pound speeding fine,but your insurance goes up by a few hundred for years. It really really hurts. Not if you make 10 million.

It's not quite proportionate, but a millionaires premium is likely to go up more than a few hundred as they're likely paying a much higher premium already for their 200K car.

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#46

Post by sago »

RobAley wrote: post #44
sago wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that you have to pay for the course. And the cost is the same as the ticket. The only difference is you don't get the endorsements on your license.

And this saves you a lot more money than the fine on your Insurance premiums not increasing.

I guess so. I've only had 3 points and it didn't make a difference to my premiums. I guess if you get more it might though.

I'd probably take the first 3 if I got caught speeding again. Four hours taking the course would be a world more hassle.

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#47

Post by sago »

collyw wrote: post #43
colin_jack wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some disabled people rely on access to these spaces, meaning if the spaces are full they can't do their shopping and have to go home.

While I agree with you, the situation is also abused somewhat (in the UK at least). A girl in my university class had some kind of wrist problem. She wrote slow because of it, though no slower than me - I am just a slow writer. She was officially classed as disabled and could have had access to such parking, as well as extra time in exams. Does she really need access to disabled parking spots? She was fit and healthy…

How is that different from abusing the system by parking in it with no permit? Except that you are not as likely to be fined?

The question is, so what? Does the degree of abuse mean we should let more people park in disabled spots? Or should we enforce the rules more stringently?

Also, it is unhelpful to judge whether someone is 'fit and healthy' from seeing them. There are many hidden disabilities. And people with them are often accused (to their faces) of faking it, gaming the system, etc. The UK is currently suffering under a growing culture that assumes people on 'benefit' are scroungers. As a disabled person, I rely on Mobility and Care provision through Disability Living Allowance (I work, so I claim no disability benefit, or similar), I've felt the chilling effect of the disability doubt zeitgeist.

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#48

Post by RobAley »

sago wrote: post #46
RobAley wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this saves you a lot more money than the fine on your Insurance premiums not increasing.

I guess so. I've only had 3 points and it didn't make a difference to my premiums. I guess if you get more it might though. I'd probably take the first 3 if I got caught speeding again. Four hours taking the course would be a world more hassle.

Or you could, at a push, simply not speed? That way you won't get caught and won't need to deal with points, courses, fines and the like. Just a thought.

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#49

Post by sago »

RobAley wrote: post #48
sago wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess so. I've only had 3 points and it didn't make a difference to my premiums. I guess if you get more it might though. I'd probably take the first 3 if I got caught speeding again. Four hours taking the course would be a world more hassle.

Or you could, at a push, simply not speed? That way you won't get caught and won't need to deal with points, courses, fines and the like. Just a thought.

Indeed. It isn't always so simple. I'd prefer to always drive 100% perfectly with 100% awareness of speed, speed limits, road conditions, and so on. Unfortunately I err from time to time. Hence the 'if' in my statement.

Re: Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket

#50

Post by frobozz »

gambiting wrote: post #25
aryehof wrote: post #14

One can surely argue that for an increasingly large proportion of the public, the level of monetary punishment does not provide any deterrent from breaking rules. Maybe I am imagining it, but (anecdotally) I tend to see mainly expensive cars parked illegally in handicapped spots. Income proportional fines seems to me like a fair way to apply a monetary deterrent to people that now get meaningless (to them) fines.

But is it really? 10% of your income if you make $500 a month is a LOT, because it can make a difference between being able to afford rent/food or not. But 10% of your income if you make 10 million is obviously huge, but is it going to have any impact on your lifestyle? No. I love how UK does it - the fines are relatively small, but your insurance rates can go up so much you can pay a small fortune over next 3 years…

A system could be worked out that reduces that inequity - A tiered system like income tax would be easy to apply.

A system that charges based on a fixed, high percentage of your income above a certain threshold (e.g. the living wage) would ensure that offenders lose most of their disposable income for a period, regardless of their wealth, and that they don't risk eviction and starvation, regardless of poverty.

Of course, if, due to your lack of spare cash, you're stuck in your mansion, swimming in your own pool, and unable to replenish your comprehensive cellar of fine wines as you drink through them (until your fine expires), it's still not as much of an impact as being stuck in your flat, unable to buy admission to the municipal pool or buy a single can of Special Brew; but it's fairer than a flat percentage, which in turn is fairer than a flat penalty.

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